24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

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tinpan
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24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by tinpan » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:15 pm

So, reading the following article, it has lots of fun stuff to play with. What are your thoughts on the topic?

Articles last month revealed that musician Neil Young and Apple's Steve Jobs discussed offering digital music downloads of 'uncompromised studio quality'. Much of the press and user commentary was particularly enthusiastic about the prospect of uncompressed 24 bit 192kHz downloads. 24/192 featured prominently in my own conversations with Mr. Young's group several months ago.

Unfortunately, there is no point to distributing music in 24-bit/192kHz format. Its playback fidelity is slightly inferior to 16/44.1 or 16/48, and it takes up 6 times the space.

There are a few real problems with the audio quality and 'experience' of digitally distributed music today. 24/192 solves none of them. While everyone fixates on 24/192 as a ma.....


Continued here:

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
Tinpan

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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by tinpan » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:15 pm

Pffffsstttt....fuse lit =D>
Tinpan

HT - Sunfire TG IV, Sunfire Cinema Grand Sig. 400 x 5, Oppo 93, Klipsch LaScala (3), Cornwalls (2), SW-12, Sony 60" LCD

2 channel - AN L2 Pre-amp, AN Interstage Mono Blocks 300b PSE, AN 2.1 DAC, DUAL CS 5000 TT, Oppo DV-981HD, Lowther PM4a/Azurahorn/SentryIV

2 channel - AN L3 Signature Line stage, AN Interstage Mono Blocks 300b PSE, AN Sig. DAC 3.1 , AN Sig. Phono Stage, Sota Comet TT, Altec A5's

2 channel - Carver VTA20 Baby Black Beauty, Custom Line Stage, Klipschorns

2 channel - AN Interstage Mono Blocks 300b PSE, Carver C-5 Pre, Altec A4 speakers


2 channel - Audio Note Kit 1 300b SET, Audio Note DAC 2.1, Altec 288 Horns/JBL Bass bin

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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by radioeng2 » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:38 pm

You'd have to about be stupid to believe that load of crap! Of course, some believe the spin the guy that claims to be president thows up against the wall too, so I guess that goes to show some will believe about anything.

If you found the link to the story, you probably also found the many times it's been debunked too! So it's a non-starter story line at this point.

Just go set down and listen to a full high rez set and then switch back to low rez (redbook) and you can tell for yourself that a certain amount of ease goes away and the redbook has a more grainy character. All this bunk about burning up tweeters and amps and you can't hear higher than redbook goes...and on and on just show how people decide something from lack of knowledge and then go on to "prove it" to themselves with their "science".

The dive to the bottom seems to be going in many quarters right now. It's sad!

Mark
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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by elgrau » Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:15 pm

Great article. How our ears work, sampling theory (I've tried for years to convince non-technical types that digital music does NOT have a "stairstep" waveform....), how all this relates to different sampling rates, bits per sample, etc. And I think I said at the time that Neil made these claims that he was in way over his head....technology wise and digital sampling theory... Great song writer/musician, but no mathematician...

The two linked papers: "Coding High Quality Digital Audio" and "Sampling Theory for Digital Audio" are also very good...
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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by radioeng2 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:33 pm

Here Ed...

http://www.silcom.com/~aludwig/Physics/ ... CavRes.htm

Something for you to spend time with since you clearly would rather bury yourself in theory than in listening and knowing the truth. (Forgive me if you've pointed to that article before. Just ran across it by accident and immediately thought of your projects.)

There is significant value in working your way backwards when the theory clashes with reality or the proof of the end result. If you don't go to the end and realize there is a fault in the theory then you could spend forever in circular logic of justification.

Mark
Last edited by radioeng2 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by stereo_buff » Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:39 pm

You'll note under "Further Reading" a reference to a paper written by Dan Lavry of Lavry Engineering, "Sampling Theory for Digital Audio." I am not affiliated with him in any way myself, but I think it VERY INTERESTING that the A-D converters he builds are used by some of the most respected mastering engineers and studios (i.e., those known for producing high quality, excellent sounding recordings) in the world. Interesting, huh? Makes me suspect that 24/192 is more about marketing ('bigger is better') than actual performance...

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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by elgrau » Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:54 pm

Linky no workie, Mark. Exactly what are you referring to? What I garnered (from actually reading the articles...) was that current CD technology is NOT good enough, but due to numerous factors, that 96k (and of course 192k) is too high and leads to worse (not better sound)..but not necessaily worse than current "Red Book" format. Reasons for all this are covered in these articles. One conclusion was that 58k sampling was "best" (with other factors in place..all also covered).

But regardless of one's position re number of samples/bits/coding methods/etc., the articles have a lot of great info (from real live experts in the field!) on sampling theory, how digital music actually works, how we actually hear (and how the brain plays a huge part!), what the future format of digital music should be (e.g., to capture "dimensionality: full spherical reproduction (including height)"). Did someone say "spherical"...? Hmmm, maybe a "spherical speaker" would be needed for THAT.... :lol:

As to "burying oneself in theory":

"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
—Carl Sagan

And, As one frustrated poster wrote,

"[The Sampling Theorem] hasn't been invented to explain how digital audio works, it's the other way around. Digital Audio was invented from the theorem, if you don't believe the theorem then you can't believe in digital audio either!!"

And my favorite:

"Misinformation and superstition only serve charlatans. So, let's cover some of the basics of why 24/192 distribution makes no sense before suggesting some improvements that actually do."
Last edited by elgrau on Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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LR: AudioEngine wireless link from family room preamp to Barcus-Berry 2002R Sonic Maximizer to GlowPower Zyxt IC's to Sunfire 300x2 to Nordost 6M bi-source wires to AOS 28" MDF spherical speakers using six 6.5" woofers and eight 1" dome tweeters symm. arranged around the surface.
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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by stereo_buff » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:13 pm

elgrau wrote:Did someone say "spherical"...? Hmmm, maybe a "spherical speaker" would be needed for THAT.... :lol:
All that is needed is a pair of Bob's Amazing Line Source (ALS); they will reveal the dimensionality and spherical reproduction you seek...

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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by radioeng2 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:22 pm

Retry that link. I think I fixed it. Sorry!

While 96 is better, there comes a naturalness to 192 that's just better. Again, if you just read info, you could convince yourself of something like 58khz being enough. But it's total bunk. All it takes is listening to know! When the end result disproves all the techno speak in the world, then it's still bunk. Why spend any time what so ever with people that have a vested interest in less than what's available to us? There is a place for understanding the why's and then there comes a time to just go to the end of the line and check it out for yourself. When the result doesn't match the "science", then the all the scientific principles in the world just don't matter.

And by the way, I do digital for a living and have for a long time. And I do it with an open mind, but more importantly with open ears! Try it....

Mark

PS...the guy selling the BS is vested in bit rate reduced being good enough too! If you're into Montgomery Ward all in one rack systems, then it probably is. Some shoot higher....
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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by radioeng2 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:29 pm

stereo_buff wrote: All that is needed is a pair of Bob's Amazing Line Source (ALS); they will reveal the dimensionality and spherical reproduction you seek...
You can shorten that to just say line sources! Not at all to take anything away from a well done bigger line source, but line sources are interesting. I've been playing with them now for a while and the attributes using different drivers carries over from all the years I spent with the Martin Logan electrostat line sources. They just function a bit different than than the typical cones/crossover type speaker. Anybody that's spent time with the ALS or the Amazings (or any other line source) will find some of those family characteristics in Bob's new lines too.

Mark
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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by elgrau » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:38 pm

Stereo-buff wrote:
"...a reference to a paper written by Dan Lavry of Lavry Engineering, "Sampling Theory for Digital Audio." I am not affiliated with him in any way myself, but I think it VERY INTERESTING that the A-D converters he builds are used by some of the most respected mastering engineers and studios (i.e., those known for producing high quality, excellent sounding recordings) in the world. Interesting, huh? Makes me suspect that 24/192 is more about marketing ('bigger is better') than actual performance..."

Sorry Mark, but I'll go with the above true digital experts. When THEY switch to 192k sampling rate (for the AD/DA converters that THEY use/buy professionally, THEN I'll believe that 192k might be superior. Until then, I gotta believe those that (per above) actually MAKE music professionally, not "legends in their own minds" who are actually naive enough to think/believe that THEY know better than these "most respected mastering engineers and studios (i.e., those known for producing high quality, excellent sounding recordings) in the world". That's just crazy....stupid!
FR: 400 disk changer with PS Audio Digital Link III DAC; Technics SL-1100A TT. QED Quenx1 IC's from DAC & TT to Adcom GTP-602 preamp/Tuner. AudioQuest King Cobra IC's from preamp to M1.0t mk-II opt2. QED Silver Spirals 4M wires to EPI 1000’s.
LR: AudioEngine wireless link from family room preamp to Barcus-Berry 2002R Sonic Maximizer to GlowPower Zyxt IC's to Sunfire 300x2 to Nordost 6M bi-source wires to AOS 28" MDF spherical speakers using six 6.5" woofers and eight 1" dome tweeters symm. arranged around the surface.
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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by radioeng2 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:31 pm

And I can find "experts" with greater credentials than those guys that say higher bit rate is very important. But why bother...all you have to do is go listen to know the reality. That's what I keep say and you keep ignoring.

....and I never claimed to be a legend. Not even close. I just said I do it and listen to it and don't just believe whatever somebody else says.

Mark
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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by elgrau » Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:23 pm

"Higher bit rate is important..."

But not when it DEGRADES the sound (due to OTHER factors covered in these articles). Like the fact that this higher bit rate allows for the inclusion of 20k+ content that AUDIO amps were never designed to LINEARILY amplify. This leads to harmonics of this INCORRECTLY amplified content DISTORTING the signal in the audio range (of INTEREST). That's just one "for example" that these "most respected mastering engineers and studios (i.e., those known for producing the highest quality, excellent sounding recordings) in the world" take into account when designing and building and selling their AD/DA converter's (like the aforementioned Dan Lavry). When you can reference me your so called (fictitious?) "experts" with greater credentials than those guys (who actually design/sell/make AD/DA converters and when the "most respected mastering engineers and studios (i.e., those known for producing high quality, excellent sounding recordings) in the world" BUY those instead of Dan's, then perhaps your perceived "common sense" linear notion of the world (that more is always better, etc.) re this issue might have merit. But the physical world is not linear, Mark; it's very non-linear. More is only better to a certain point...then other factors "kick in" that make it LESS instead of more. I gotta go with Dan on this one...he's not in the business of fooling himself. It's his profession.... unlike heresay "proof" and wishful/faulty thinking and hearing.
FR: 400 disk changer with PS Audio Digital Link III DAC; Technics SL-1100A TT. QED Quenx1 IC's from DAC & TT to Adcom GTP-602 preamp/Tuner. AudioQuest King Cobra IC's from preamp to M1.0t mk-II opt2. QED Silver Spirals 4M wires to EPI 1000’s.
LR: AudioEngine wireless link from family room preamp to Barcus-Berry 2002R Sonic Maximizer to GlowPower Zyxt IC's to Sunfire 300x2 to Nordost 6M bi-source wires to AOS 28" MDF spherical speakers using six 6.5" woofers and eight 1" dome tweeters symm. arranged around the surface.
SS system: CX-995V DVD to AV-634x 3-4 channel amp (center/rears) & M1.0t mk-II opt2(fronts).
Garage: 300 disk changer to Entech 202.5 DAC to MXR150 Receiver (pre) to TFM-42 to EPI 400 speakers.

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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by frankieD » Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:48 pm

radioeng2 wrote:Retry that link. I think I fixed it. Sorry!

While 96 is better, there comes a naturalness to 192 that's just better. Again, if you just read info, you could convince yourself of something like 58khz being enough. But it's total bunk. All it takes is listening to know! When the end result disproves all the techno speak in the world, then it's still bunk. Why spend any time what so ever with people that have a vested interest in less than what's available to us? There is a place for understanding the why's and then there comes a time to just go to the end of the line and check it out for yourself. When the result doesn't match the "science", then the all the scientific principles in the world just don't matter.

And by the way, I do digital for a living and have for a long time. And I do it with an open mind, but more importantly with open ears! Try it....

Mark

PS...the guy selling the BS is vested in bit rate reduced being good enough too! If you're into Montgomery Ward all in one rack systems, then it probably is. Some shoot higher....

You and Ed (Elgrau) can go back & fourth and not get anywhere.

The highlighted line above says it all. I must bow to my friend Kingman and agree:

How it sounds to you is all that really matters.

And Mark that was a funny line about how you have an "open mind"....its at least as open as Ed's.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

P. S. BTW: I have high hope for the next election too but do either of you really think Oromney will be a big improvement?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

P.P.S. Don't take all this shit so seriously.

Hope to see you both at the fest.

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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by radioeng2 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:44 pm

So lets see what the folks you've crowned as "experts" have decided. 56k is the best. 92 is...well...ok. 192 just plan sucks.

So I guess the last hour I spent listening to SACD must have just about been living hell!! Right??? HA...ha...ha.....ha....

How flippin nutz!!

Fictitous experts huh? Your clueless Ed. Totally clueless. Why don't you just spend a while listening to higher rez instead of reading papers clinging to horribly flawed theory? When you hear it be MUCH better then you can bypass all the bunk. Or you can set around reading papers. You decide!

In the meantime you're floundering around with theory just thown up against the wall trying to get something to sitck. You're in a horse drawn buggy argueing that we're going to have our bodies simply come apart from our reckless behavior of daring to drive that motorized scary vehicle at....at....gasp....12MHP!! Holy hell...what foolish behavior!!!
I was there "At the Fest!" Hope you were too!

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