24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

CD / SACD Discussion
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treitz3
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Post by treitz3 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:12 pm

Oh dear Lord that was funny, Mark. =D>
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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by radioeng2 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:59 am

So SACD's at that horrible high data rate spawning distortion have been around for about a dozen years.

Has anybody heard of any amps suddenly going up into a pile of sand?

Has any tweeter been reported to have burst into flames? Should I have fire extinguisher in my listening room? Put in a sprinkler system?

I realize that you Californication folks aren't known for applying common sense but isn't it rational to look at the end result and if doesn't match up with the theory then the theory is faulty?

OK...we haven't heard another insulting reply comparing me to the devil in a few hours now, does that mean Ed is listening....or reading another paper?
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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by TNRabbit » Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:25 am

You know, I was WONDERING why my amp suddenly turned to a pile of sand!!!






:lol:
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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by elgrau » Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:02 am

Mark, you're spewing garbage and shit that I never said nor believe. Time for me to exit this "discussion" and your wild accusations and assertions. e.g., I (nor the article) never claimed SACD was not better than Red Book CD. The article was discussing 192k...not SACD. I never said that 192k would HARM an amp (obviously!); just that they are designed to be linear in the audio range (~20-20k Hz) and when amplifying frequencies ABOVE that (as 192k allows content higher than 22k to be included in the signal), these AUDIO amps will distort those higher frequencies (because they are out of the amps linear range) and the harmonics of these distorted higher frequencies than "pollute" the response in the band that we hear in (~20 to 20k Hz at best...).

So as usual, when folks can't offer a rationale counter argument they resort to lies and false claims and exagerations (and name calling...). Whatever. Obviously, I could care less that you want 192k digital music. The fact that it has hardware related issues that make it LESS fidelity than ~60k-80k sampling is your problem, not mine. Slick audio salesman have and will continue to fleece ignorant "audiophiles" from now 'til the end of time... I just don't want it shoved down my throat....

But just as my final comments, you might want to check to see if that 192k music (that you ASSUME sounds better due to the higher sampling rate) came from the exact same master tape (with no re-mastering...) as the SACD or red book CD that you are A-B comparing it to (you are doing that, right? Otherwise your perceived claim that it "sounds better" is crap with nothing to compare it to! Most likely simply the placebo effect). And that it is at the exact same sound level as the CD version....studies have shown that "snake oil" salesman ALWAYS slightly "juice" the "preferred" choice by a fraction of a db and that alone is enough to make that choice "sound better". Just some things to think about. Remember, when you "assume" something (i.e., that because something "sounds better", the reason must be due to....) you make an ass out of u and me... :lol:
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LR: AudioEngine wireless link from family room preamp to Barcus-Berry 2002R Sonic Maximizer to GlowPower Zyxt IC's to Sunfire 300x2 to Nordost 6M bi-source wires to AOS 28" MDF spherical speakers using six 6.5" woofers and eight 1" dome tweeters symm. arranged around the surface.
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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by stereo_buff » Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:57 am

elgrau wrote:... you might want to check to see if that 192k music (that you ASSUME sounds better due to the higher sampling rate) came from the exact same master tape (with no re-mastering...) as the SACD or red book CD that you are A-B comparing it to (you are doing that, right? ...
Related to the above statement, I have Dave Brubeck's Time Out Legacy Edition (standard Red Book CD issue) and have compared it against the same album, taken from the same analog master tape (I believe), only HDCD encoded. The HDCD encoded version (as played on my Rotel RCD-1072) blows away everything except the recent 2 LP, 200 gram, 45 rpm release of the same album from Analogue Productions, in my opinion. As some may recall, HDCD is fully Red Book compliant with 'extra' information buried in an otherwise unused portion of the disc to achieve 20 bit performance, but is still sampled at 44.1 kHz.

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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by elgrau » Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:31 pm

Cool SB... 45 RPM album? That's a new one on me. Did you mean 33 RPM? HDCD sounds cool as well. You're saying "red book" CD's have 20 bits of info that can be utilized (with HDCD player??). I've got no beef with any of this.....but I guess information (re the original article you posted) about all this and the fact that people read it and comment about how they enjoyed all the info gleaned from said articles is somehow threatening and offensive to some who then feel the need to start attacking... That's telling in and of its self. :lol:
FR: 400 disk changer with PS Audio Digital Link III DAC; Technics SL-1100A TT. QED Quenx1 IC's from DAC & TT to Adcom GTP-602 preamp/Tuner. AudioQuest King Cobra IC's from preamp to M1.0t mk-II opt2. QED Silver Spirals 4M wires to EPI 1000’s.
LR: AudioEngine wireless link from family room preamp to Barcus-Berry 2002R Sonic Maximizer to GlowPower Zyxt IC's to Sunfire 300x2 to Nordost 6M bi-source wires to AOS 28" MDF spherical speakers using six 6.5" woofers and eight 1" dome tweeters symm. arranged around the surface.
SS system: CX-995V DVD to AV-634x 3-4 channel amp (center/rears) & M1.0t mk-II opt2(fronts).
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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by kingman » Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:37 pm

Ed they make 45 rpm albums now for high resolution vinyl, I just heard that a couple months ago. Only got like 3 songs on each side. Imagine that!! 8)
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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by elgrau » Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:43 pm

Cool! More RPM is always better.. :lol: . Next thing you know they'll come out with 78 RPM records. That should really make all the "progressives" happy! :lol:
FR: 400 disk changer with PS Audio Digital Link III DAC; Technics SL-1100A TT. QED Quenx1 IC's from DAC & TT to Adcom GTP-602 preamp/Tuner. AudioQuest King Cobra IC's from preamp to M1.0t mk-II opt2. QED Silver Spirals 4M wires to EPI 1000’s.
LR: AudioEngine wireless link from family room preamp to Barcus-Berry 2002R Sonic Maximizer to GlowPower Zyxt IC's to Sunfire 300x2 to Nordost 6M bi-source wires to AOS 28" MDF spherical speakers using six 6.5" woofers and eight 1" dome tweeters symm. arranged around the surface.
SS system: CX-995V DVD to AV-634x 3-4 channel amp (center/rears) & M1.0t mk-II opt2(fronts).
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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by stereo_buff » Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:23 pm

elgrau wrote:Cool SB... 45 RPM album? That's a new one on me. Did you mean 33 RPM? HDCD sounds cool as well. You're saying "red book" CD's have 20 bits of info that can be utilized (with HDCD player??). I've got no beef with any of this.....but I guess information (re the original article you posted) about all this and the fact that people read it and comment about how they enjoyed all the info gleaned from said articles is somehow threatening and offensive to some who then feel the need to start attacking... That's telling in and of its self. :lol:
No, I meant 45 RPM album, and they are popping up more and more as time goes by (seemingly for audiophiles). Yes, there is something like only three songs per side, depending on length, but they sound fantastic, in most cases.

Red Book CDs only have 20 bits of information available if they are HDCD encoded and the CD player used is equipped with an HDCD decoder (like my Rotel). However, HDCD encoded discs will sound modestly better, even on non-HDCD decoder CD players, due to an improved filter algorithm in the A/D converter (a Pacific Microsonics Model One or Model Two, like Kevin Gray uses, considered the "very best"). All of this information is well-documented.

Note: HDCD was created by Prof. Keith O. Johnson and Michael "Pflash" Pflaumer at Pacific Microsonics, who also made the only equipment that could encode HDCD at time of disc mastering, e.g., the Model Two. Microsoft has since purchased Pacific Microsonics, killing the manufacture of hardware, but the Model Two is still considered the best A-D, D-A ever made, creating a niche for those that continue to offer support for deployed units.

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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by elgrau » Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:24 pm

Finally went to your link, Mark. Totally irrelevant to this thread...but it's main conclusion was: "The intensity of a resonance depends on the cavity Q, so for similar walls the (resonant) intensity will also be similar for a cube and a sphere." What's your point (if any)?
FR: 400 disk changer with PS Audio Digital Link III DAC; Technics SL-1100A TT. QED Quenx1 IC's from DAC & TT to Adcom GTP-602 preamp/Tuner. AudioQuest King Cobra IC's from preamp to M1.0t mk-II opt2. QED Silver Spirals 4M wires to EPI 1000’s.
LR: AudioEngine wireless link from family room preamp to Barcus-Berry 2002R Sonic Maximizer to GlowPower Zyxt IC's to Sunfire 300x2 to Nordost 6M bi-source wires to AOS 28" MDF spherical speakers using six 6.5" woofers and eight 1" dome tweeters symm. arranged around the surface.
SS system: CX-995V DVD to AV-634x 3-4 channel amp (center/rears) & M1.0t mk-II opt2(fronts).
Garage: 300 disk changer to Entech 202.5 DAC to MXR150 Receiver (pre) to TFM-42 to EPI 400 speakers.

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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by Martin1970 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:47 pm

OK, so there's some debate on whether one can hear a difference with this material recorded and played back at higher sampling rates. I want no part of that discussion.

I would, however, love to be able to listen for myself.

I get ALL of my source material from the hard drive: CD, FLAC, DVD, SACD.

Both my soundcard and my DSP (for biamping) are native 24/48 devices.

Is there any hardware on earth right now that will let me do exactly what I'm doing with now at 24/192 or do DSD 1/2.8 MHz?

It looks like even the super pricey BSS Soundweb stuff is 96 kHz limited.

Are we still limited to playing back through an Oppo and going straight to analog at that point for multichannel hi-rez goodness?
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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by Don » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:05 pm

OK, time to move on to the I/C cable debate! :shock: :lol:
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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by frankieD » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:25 pm

Don wrote:OK, time to move on to the I/C cable debate! :shock: :lol:

Not so fast Don.

I've just gotten comfortable with some popcorn and a glass of wine & you want to stop this? I don't think so.

To Mark: Are you going to let some southern California fruitcake question you when you are a Radioengineer?

To Ed: Are you going to take that shit from some redneck cracker who thinks he knows something cause he sweeps up at a radio station?


To either of you: ARE YOU GONNA TAKE THAT SHIT?

O.K. carry on now.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by Don » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:32 pm

frankieD wrote:
Don wrote:OK, time to move on to the I/C cable debate! :shock: :lol:

Not so fast Don.

I've just gotten comfortable with some popcorn and a glass of wine & you want to stop this? I don't think so.

To Mark: Are you going to let some southern California fruitcake question you when you are a Radioengineer?

To Ed: Are you going to take that shit from some redneck cracker who thinks he knows something cause he sweeps up at a radio station?


To either of you: ARE YOU GONNA TAKE THAT SHIT?

O.K. carry on now.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Touche my friend. Now, that was really good. =D> :lol: You are right we can always resurrect another thread for the I/C and speaker cable debate. My bad! :rolleyes:
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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by kingman » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:37 pm

Well...In Reality...................... :lol:
In reality, it only matters what it sounds like to YOU!!!

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