24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

CD / SACD Discussion
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radioeng2
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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by radioeng2 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:17 pm

I've been away as a lightning strike decided it was time to pay me a visit at about 12:30am Friday and I've been and will be buried for a while. I've never had so much screwed at one time! But those things come around sooner or later no matter what. I think it came into the studio complex right from a tower hit. Anyway....

I don't think there really is any debate. It's just as simple as the play button to know.

You make me laugh FrankieD!! You goof!!

Martin, I don't know what the best way for you to get higher rate data audio to your ears would be. You've got SO MUCH stuff in your system. Too many conversions is paramount to avoid for sure. Try to either stay digital as long as possible or once in analog, don't convert back. Don't remember enough of what I've seen you post on your system to remember what exactly all you go thru. I have a friend with a BSS unit. He plays right out of the computer AES with a long run across the room to the rack area to the BSS. It does the D/A and he comes out into a stereo 3 way system that's tri-amped into horns and OB bass. It's very good. He can fully alter freq's, slopes, phase and do some minor eq and level control all in that unit. I'd rate it as WAY beyond the DCX2496 which does pretty much all those functions too. I've got one of those to use experimentally to help develop crossover points and so forth.

Ed the reason I mentioned the SACD is simply because it's higher data rate yet. Wonder if the double rate DSD has potential for more than just distortion and blowing speakers? Maybe it might light curtains on fire or something!!

Ed, when you throw shit on me, it's going to come right back. You take a nasty tone at me and it's going to come right back. I love to talk audio and it doesn't need to go negative at all. But you were very negative AT ME and make it like a me versus all the experts in the world or something. And that's just simply not the way it is all.

By the way, information way high in freq has existed forever from LP's. It's only been lacking more recently from the hard filtering of the 44.1 limitation. But I'm personally not so sure the sonic advantage comes from info way up high. I think you can hear a smoothness on things like a human voice for instance.

I've probably missed something but I'm so tired I can't see straight and may not make so much sense anyway. But I think once anybody has spent time with higher data rate audio, that you'll not want to go back. Oh...the HDCD does help and can be really good thru the emphasis on quality on the production side. But if it's trashed in the process, then it can't really change much just like taking any other highly processed material on into high data rate. If it's all roughed up, then it isn't going to be higher quality just because it has more bits in any form.

Carry on with whatever debates....

Mark
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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by Shortcake » Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:48 pm

The only thing I learned reading all of this is never talk to a bunch of men about anythign other than boobs - then the conversation stays on the same socially acceptable level of crudeness.

So, like em big or small?
“Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything.” ― Plato

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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by Chauss » Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:08 pm

Shortcake wrote:The only thing I learned reading all of this is never talk to a bunch of men about anythign other than boobs - then the conversation stays on the same socially acceptable level of crudeness.

So, like em big or small?
YES! :D
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Post by treitz3 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:13 pm

Yes and yes! :D
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by elgrau » Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:23 pm

Bite sized...just right sized. Don't like too big (or fake) at all. I KNEW this thread would eventually get on to something worthwhile to discuss... :lol:
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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by Don » Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:57 pm

Shortcake wrote:The only thing I learned reading all of this is never talk to a bunch of men about anythign other than boobs - then the conversation stays on the same socially acceptable level of crudeness.

So, like em big or small?

Definetely one of your best posts! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by radioeng2 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:38 pm

elgrau wrote:Bite sized...just right sized. Don't like too big (or fake) at all. I KNEW this thread would eventually get on to something worthwhile to discuss... :lol:

Again...personal research is needed! Don't just read about it!! \:D/


Ha...ha...ha....
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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by TNRabbit » Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:43 pm

Shortcake wrote:The only thing I learned reading all of this is never talk to a bunch of men about anythign other than boobs - then the conversation stays on the same socially acceptable level of crudeness.

So, like em big or small?
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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by radioeng2 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:32 pm

So a physicist researcher friend of mine and I sat down today for a bit and compared a couple high rez players.

I started, by of course, wetting down the curtains....

Up was the older Oppo 83 versus a new Marantz 8004. The Oppo is a neat but rather affordable universal player that can do multi-channel along with 2 channel from SACD, DVD or redbook. The Marantz is only 2 channel out and can do SACD or redbook.

We compared both redbook and then SACD 2 channel. We were doing a more time limited comparison so we would play the beginning of some familiar recordings that stress certain things. We'd play it a few times, then switch to the other player and do it as many times as inclined. Then often go back to the first player.

On a massed string voilin cut, it has that bright edge that likes to turn steely sounding and get harsh if given a chance. On the Oppo, it did a little. On the Marantz it stayed much cleaner. After a while of going back and forth on some other material, we both would have given the Marantz the nod as being a bit easier on the ears.

When we switched to SACD (couldn't do any faster PCM as the Marantz won't play it) we first played the Jen Chapin cut that I included on last years CF disc. Big clear distinct bass plays to the right side along with some percussion. Far left is the sax, she sings middle and we had a good laugh at the little mouth sounds in the beginning just to the right side of her. Those little effects do sound male but don't match where the bass player is or the percussion. So we decided that we might have missed a career opportunity there making vocal efx! 8) On that cut, I'd have preferred the Oppo slightly due to what seemed like clearer vocal image and I loved the bass having a little more slam that just seems right for the song. On the Marantz, her voice felt just a tiny bit more woody or rough and the song didn't have quite the same impact. At about that point, the words I put to it and seemed to match the rest of our experiences was that the Marantz was probably very accurate but if anythng errored as being just a bit polite.

We moved onto other cuts, but on SACD a highlight is always a Mark Levinson personal collection he put out on a Red Rose sampler. It's certainly some of the finest sonics you can find on any recordings! On a simple male vocal by Kenny Rankin, accompanied by only his solo acoustic guitar, we thought them very similar. Same with another cut where Mark strikes some different large gongs and bells while his (ex) mother-in-law reads a Psalms. The the following where he plays string bass while his (ex) wife reads a poem. Very striking the clarity as he recorded them with only purist mic pair technique right into an early experimental DSD recorder.

After a couple hours, we had to stop and go onto something else as critical listening (instead of for pleasure) always wears you out much faster. But the Oppo which was $450 when it was available new held up very well against the current $1K Marantz. If you were going to play mostly redbood, then the Marantz is very solid. If you want higher rez, then you have to consider your personal setup and if you want to play the variety of rates you can get in PCM or if you'd be happy with just 2 channel SACD.

I'm experimenting currently with multi-channel from the SACD. And I have a fair amount now of a variety of speeds of PCM, from the 24 bit 44.1, up to the 192/24. It'd be a pain to have to run it over to a USB thumb drive to play it on the Marantz. Or another option would be to use something else as a high rez source and go SPDIF into the Marantz to decode it. Just too bad Marantz is married to Sony's lockdown format and can't see to make it universal to begin with.

But the high rez into the short lines of fullrange OB drivers is simply stunning when fed the data that better fills in the performer images and gets away from the slightly more ragged slower speed. Certainly hard to appreciate until you spend a long session on high rez and then drop in a redbook!

A good afternoon and didn't have a thing burn up!!

Mark
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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by Shortcake » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:40 pm

Don wrote:
Shortcake wrote:The only thing I learned reading all of this is never talk to a bunch of men about anything other than boobs - then the conversation stays on the same socially acceptable level of crudeness.

So, like em big or small?

Definitely one of your best posts! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Finally!!!!!
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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by Shortcake » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:41 pm

elgrau wrote:Bite sized...just right sized. Don't like too big (or fake) at all. I KNEW this thread would eventually get on to something worthwhile to discuss... :lol:

Glad to be of service....
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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by Martin1970 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:07 pm

radioeng2 wrote: Martin, I don't know what the best way for you to get higher rate data audio to your ears would be. You've got SO MUCH stuff in your system. Too many conversions is paramount to avoid for sure. Try to either stay digital as long as possible or once in analog, don't convert back. Don't remember enough of what I've seen you post on your system to remember what exactly all you go thru.
You sorted my adapter woes and the path is actually dead simple in the digital domain:
Resampling to 48 kHz (if necessary) happens in the PC.
From there it's whatever sample size by 48kHz until it hits the output DACs right in front of the Sunfire amp. The Rane buffers and reclocks everything so there's no jitter. Easy-peasy.
radioeng2 wrote: I have a friend with a BSS unit. He plays right out of the computer AES with a long run across the room to the rack area to the BSS. It does the D/A and he comes out into a stereo 3 way system that's tri-amped into horns and OB bass. It's very good. He can fully alter freq's, slopes, phase and do some minor eq and level control all in that unit. I'd rate it as WAY beyond the DCX2496 which does pretty much all those functions too. I've got one of those to use experimentally to help develop crossover points and so forth.
Mark
Your friend and I have VERY similar setups, even open baffle here, too.
His BSS unit is limited to 96 kHz, mine's 48kHz.

If you did your listening today at his house, I wonder what path you're using to get the SACDs to the speakers as you would have to have a PCM conversion in there somewhere if you're going through a BSS Soundweb London unit. Either that or I read the specs wrong and my apologies.

BTW thanks again for that sampler CD. I put it in as I read your last post.

Also, I've got to get my ears on a copy of that ML SACD sometime.

You might like some of the Blue Coast and Valence stuff. They have DSD downloads.
Check out Light in the Fracture from this link. Not normally my taste in music, but the sound is quite haunting on this setup, even with the free sample's resolution.[url][http://valencerecords.downloadsnow.net/glass/url]
Seems like the recording quality is pretty good.
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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

Post by radioeng2 » Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:53 pm

Hi Martin,

Sorry I haven't had time to get on line this week and I left questions hanging!

The referred to listening was not at that friends house. This was going analog out of each player and letting them stand on their own.

Yes, the Blue Coast stuff is well done. I have several of their high bit rate and a few cuts of the DSD. BTW...the J River Media Center will play the DSD among it's many features! I'll check out that other label you link...

I wondering if you've given any thought to NOT upsampling to 48? It's generally considered to be questionable to do those kind of conversions. Have you/can you just stay 44.1?

Mark

PS...btw, one of the cool things about Blue Coast is you can listen to more than just a brief sample! You know much better what your buying when you can set and listen to it all!!
I was there "At the Fest!" Hope you were too!

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