FAQ  •  Register   •  Gallery •  Login

It is currently Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:41 pm

bi-amp / bi-wiring speakers

<<

skip

User avatar

aka (Sasquach)

Posts: 1870

Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:47 pm

Location: Gaston, S.C.

Post Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:07 am

I've got two PM300's driven by a C1 pre-amp. The LSI9's are rated at 120 watts, and the amps are either 120 or 150 watts into 4 ohms, can't remember.
<<

TNRabbit

User avatar

(pair of) SILVER-7 TUBE AMPs

Posts: 13374

Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:53 am

Location: TN Native Languishing in VA

Post Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:19 am

Just an afterthought; if you're considering bi-amp/bi-wiring, take into account that the total speaker resistance/impedance may be 8 ohms (for example), but the woofer & tweeter may be different individually. It's something to consider...
TNRabbit
Image

From FrankieD's lips to your ears: Sunfire - a quiet box of endless power.

Sunfire TG-IV/400~7 Amp
Carver SD/A-360 CDP
Benchmark DAC-1
Sony SACD/DVD-A
Active bi-amp: Ashly XR-1001 & 2 Rane PEQ-15s
Main: HotRodded AL-IIIs
Sub: Klipsch RT-12d
Center: Sunfire CRS-3c
Surround: Sunfire CRS-3 (x 2)

OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

RIP WIlliam B. Dibble, 1948-2012. I'll miss you my friend.
<<

mikekohut

TFM-45

Posts: 502

Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 1:33 am

Location: Savoy, Illinois

Post Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:00 pm

I am pleased to say that my recent switchroo from horizontal to vertical biamping yielded significant improvement using two TFM-35x amps - for some reason it not only gets louder, it sounds better - more natural??? Hell, maybe louder is simply more natural!

Likely the obvious advantage to spreading bass note demands across two separate amplifiers.
<<

rallimike

Newbie

Posts: 20

Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2004 11:15 pm

Post Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:08 am

What crossover did you use?
<<

Mr. M1.0t

Newbie 50+

Posts: 82

Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:26 pm

Location: Central Minnesota

Post Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:36 pm

I know this is an old thread but I figured this is where I'd start... OK, whats the advantage of bi-wiring? I've been doing it for years because my Paradigm manuals say to do so, but I honestly don't really know why?
OCCD! It's real!
TGP-5~TGA-7401~Silver 7t's~(2) M1.0t's
SD/A 490t~ DTL 200mkII
C-1~ TX-2~The Carver Receiver
<<

TNRabbit

User avatar

(pair of) SILVER-7 TUBE AMPs

Posts: 13374

Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:53 am

Location: TN Native Languishing in VA

Post Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:43 pm

Mr. M1.0t wrote:I know this is an old thread but I figured this is where I'd start... OK, whats the advantage of bi-wiring? I've been doing it for years because my Paradigm manuals say to do so, but I honestly don't really know why?


It divides the amp power. You have one channel driving only the upper or lower range instead of the full speaker. Provides more power in total for the speaker.
TNRabbit
Image

From FrankieD's lips to your ears: Sunfire - a quiet box of endless power.

Sunfire TG-IV/400~7 Amp
Carver SD/A-360 CDP
Benchmark DAC-1
Sony SACD/DVD-A
Active bi-amp: Ashly XR-1001 & 2 Rane PEQ-15s
Main: HotRodded AL-IIIs
Sub: Klipsch RT-12d
Center: Sunfire CRS-3c
Surround: Sunfire CRS-3 (x 2)

OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

RIP WIlliam B. Dibble, 1948-2012. I'll miss you my friend.
<<

Mr. M1.0t

Newbie 50+

Posts: 82

Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:26 pm

Location: Central Minnesota

Post Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:02 pm

?...MMmm, I'm only using 1 amp. (TFM 35) 2 wires from each output, 1 up top, 1 to the low end, each side..?
OCCD! It's real!
TGP-5~TGA-7401~Silver 7t's~(2) M1.0t's
SD/A 490t~ DTL 200mkII
C-1~ TX-2~The Carver Receiver
<<

RichP714

SILVER-7t

Posts: 1814

Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:12 pm

Post Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:51 pm

Mr. M1.0t wrote:I know this is an old thread but I figured this is where I'd start... OK, whats the advantage of bi-wiring? I've been doing it for years because my Paradigm manuals say to do so, but I honestly don't really know why?


Bi-wiring
Here's a diagram of a typical biwiring speaker. The red line is the external jumper (for using only one cable to the speaker).
Image
By removing the jumper and running two cables (one for lows and one for mid/highs), the speaker is now bi-wired (or passive biamped).

Imagine an amplifier producing 100V at 100Hz and 25V at 1KHz. (arbitrary numbers). Each channel of the amplifier is doing the same amoiunt of voltage swinging between rails (this mixed signal will look kind of like a bumpy sine wave) as in the bottom signal (red trace is there for reference).
Image
As Frequency increases the woofer channel's inductor (L1) resistance increases (if the jumper were there this would 'steer' the signal to the mid/tweet) until eventually the woofer is doing nothing (not drawing a load from that channel) although the channel is still producing the voltage.

In the upper channel, as frequency decreases this channels capacitor (C1) resistance increases (if the jumper were there it would 'steer' the voltage to the woofer) until the mid/tweet is seeing no signal, although the channel is still producing a voltage.

Benefits:
reduced cable impedence by half
reduced loading of output stage of amp
[your theory here]

Uglies:
each channel is still responding to a full spectrum signal
Passive crossover components still consuming power
[your theory here]

Biamping

All the passive crossover compenents are removed and each amp channel is tied directly to the woofer or tweeter. An active crossover splits the signal before it reaches the amplifier; each channel is only responding to the voltage it's going to load the driver with. You can see in the diagram (the red 100 hz signal is there for reference) that with an active crossover (the red trace), the amp's pre-driver stage isn't swinging as high to the voltage rails (the black trace)...there's more headroom, and the voltage isn't going to be used by the output stage anyway.

Benefits:
increased amplifier headroom
tighter dynamics
no 'wasted voltage' in amplifier driver stage
no passive crossover components consuming power
better woofer damping
[your theory here]

Uglies:
higher cost
modification of speakers
[your theory here]
<<

Mr. M-500t

(pair of) SILVER-7 TUBE AMPs

Posts: 6211

Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:00 pm

Post Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:32 pm

F1nut wrote:
TNRabbi wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole idea of bi-amping to clear up each (bottom/top) section of the audio spectrum by only running those particular frequencies thru the amp? You are wasting bass energy in the treble amp if you run full spectrum sound and vice versa.....????


Maybe I'm missing something here, but how do you run particular frequencies thru an amp?


With an Active Crossover.
<<

RichP714

SILVER-7t

Posts: 1814

Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:12 pm

Post Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:46 pm

This guy explains the bi-amping thing better than me (and he draws better too)

http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm#basics



Image

"To illustrate this point, Figure 2 shows two signals, each of 1 Unit peak amplitude. As can be seen, when the two are combined, the amplitude is much greater. The maximum peak amplitude is now 2 Units - double the peak voltage and four times the peak power of each signal individually. Power increases as the square of voltage, so twice the (peak) voltage is four times the power."


So bi-amping reduces power requirement by 4 (or increases the headroom of your amp fourfold, whichever way you want to see it)
<<

maddmaxxx

User avatar

(Pair of Silver 9t's)

Posts: 2985

Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 6:18 pm

Location: the World We Skate Our 'Choppers' Thru

Post Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:54 pm

-quote;
-Yes. Any speaker that has a dual set of binding posts will work the same, not just Polk speakers.






-***indeed, i have an original mr Carver 'original' schematics, [for bi-wiring the silvers]
-***imagine plats are'nt to different

-***shows, adding an extra pr of binding posts and at what points
-* © Küül ®™ /mx...
-Too hip gotta book
-"Don't BAN me Bro!"...el/doro
<<

Dreamer

User avatar

SILVER-7t

Posts: 1616

Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:17 am

Location: Washington, NC

Post Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:04 pm

Mr. M1.0t wrote:I know this is an old thread but I figured this is where I'd start... OK, whats the advantage of bi-wiring? I've been doing it for years because my Paradigm manuals say to do so, but I honestly don't really know why?


With many speakers and amps, the ONLY advantage to bi-wiring is that is causes you to put more money in the pockets of the wire companies...

It has been my experience (and the experience of several of my ML-owner friends) that if you're not going to bi-amp, then you're going to get better sound from shotgun wiring to the woofer posts and then using REALLY GOOD jumpers to the "highs" post. In about 80% of the applications (speaker/amp combinations) this will most likely give you better sound than bi-wirng, at a GREATLY reduced cost (saved money on wire=more money toward music!)

But depending on your amps and your speakers, and what kind of wires you are using, YMMV...

--Richard
.....HT Rig • Sony STR-DG600 Receiver • Carver M-500t • Sony BDP-S1 • Sony DVP-NS3100ES • Apple Airport Express •
..............................• Martin Logan Scenarios, Logos • Realistic Minimus 7's • Velodyne F-1500b •

2 Ch. Rig • Carver C-4000t • Silver 7t's • Krell KAV-300i • Oppo DV-981HD • Benchmark DAC1-USB • MacBook Pro 17", iTunes •
......• Technics SL-1350 turntable with Sumiko headshell, leads, and Bluepoint cartridge • Martin Logan Sequels •

.........................................................-+-Click Here to see my system-+-
<<

Mr. M1.0t

Newbie 50+

Posts: 82

Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:26 pm

Location: Central Minnesota

Post Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:42 pm

The only thing that makes sense to me is (theory) the crossover works more efficiently with bi-wiring than with just one cable. Rich's diagram shows this. Thanks! :-({|=
OCCD! It's real!
TGP-5~TGA-7401~Silver 7t's~(2) M1.0t's
SD/A 490t~ DTL 200mkII
C-1~ TX-2~The Carver Receiver
<<

lawdog10231

Newbie 50+

Posts: 69

Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:49 am

Post Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:06 pm

Re: bi-amp / bi-wiring speakers

Just so you have the extra information, I use separate passive cross over networks--one for thehigh frequencies with my Sunfire's channel tap optimized for "Current and the second Sunfire channel optimized for voltage. One two channel amp for each speaker. Now it's true that if I used an active xcrossover to process the signal I would get more power---but I also would have to buy more interconnects and lose the advantage of having a state of the art pre-amp driving all the amps. I have this old Audio Research tube pre-amp which cost me $4000 for just a line stage back when they first started making pre-amps without phono sections that adds so much to thje detail. tonal balance, folcus and sound stage that I just can't give it up by running the signal through some $300 cross-over designed for use by musicians with live bands--not audiophile music.

I have respect respect for those who have opted for the other approach. If you had a really tricked out active cross over --that route would be a no brainer.

But driving Carver original Amazing speakers puts me in the position of having 2400 watts per channel in this passive bi-amp configuration since they are in essence a 2 ohm load speaker. I figure that's plenty of power even with the wasted bass in the passive x-ver network. And this way I get to preserve Bob's original equalization processes, etc in the passive network. I used to listen to the speakers with just one channel of each amp dedicated to one speaker. But by vertically biamping with the two amps--the sound I am now getting is absolutely blowing everyone away. Even my wife likes it! And I have a friend who is now selling his Quad ESLs with a highly modded Celestion subwoofers which were fabulous. But he likes what I've got right now infintely better. =; [-X :-k #-o :shock: :-" :( :( :(
<<

Toy Maker

User avatar

Puppet Master

Posts: 6585

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:26 am

Post Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:58 pm

Re: bi-amp / bi-wiring speakers

Just an "inexpensive" idea/option.

I plan to buy one of these puppies to try out with my AL-V's and then give the Clearview back to my father, and give Tom his EQ back...
This thing is (3-way) and 2-way-able. with 30 band Eq... For $150... I'm going to try it.

The thing is built like a TANK too !!!!

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_583 ... 0EQX.html#

Image

30 Band Parametric Equalizer with 3-Way Crossover
Brushed Aluminum Finish
Flush Mount Panel
Removable Aluminum Handles
PWM Switching Power Supply
Power and Clip LED Indicator
+-12dB EQ Boost / Cut
Subwoofer Control:
Variable Input Gain Control
Variable Crossover Frequency: 45 - 500 Hz
Mode Switch (Subwoofer / Full)
0 - 12 dB Variable Bass Boost
25 - 250 Hz Variable Bass Frequency
0° - 180° Phase Control
Mid-Range Controls:
Variable Input Gain Control
Mode Switch (LPF / Full)
45 Hz - 1.6 kHz Variable Crossover Frequency
Variable Equalizer Frequency Range: 25Hz, 32Hz, 45Hz, 63Hz, 80Hz, 100Hz, 125Hz, 180Hz, 200Hz, 250Hz, 325Hz, 400Hz, 500Hz, 650Hz, 800Hz, 1kHz, 1.3kHz, 1.6kHz, 2kHz, 2.5kHz, 3.2kHz, 4kHz, 5kHz, 6.4kHz, 8kHz, 10kHz, 12kHz, 14kHz, 16kHz, 18kHz
Tweeter Controls:
Variable Input Gain Control
Mode Switch (HPF / Full)
Frequency Multiplier Switch (x1, x10)
50 Hz - 5 kHz Variable Crossover Frequency
Variable Equalizer Frequency Range: 25Hz, 32Hz, 45Hz, 63Hz, 80Hz, 100Hz, 125Hz, 180Hz, 200Hz, 250Hz, 325Hz, 400Hz, 500Hz, 650Hz, 800Hz, 1kHz, 1.3kHz, 1.6kHz, 2kHz, 2.5kHz, 3.2kHz, 4kHz, 5kHz, 6.4kHz, 8kHz, 10kHz, 12kHz, 14kHz, 16kHz, 18kHz
Signal to Noise Ratio: 85 dB
THD: 0.05%
Input Impedance: 20k Ohm
Output Impedance: 150 Ohms
Dimensions: 19-3/4" L x 8-3/4" W x 2" H
2-year Manufacturer's warranty
Whatever you do in life will be insignificant, but it's very important that you do it... because nobody else will.

‎~You think Einstein walked around thinkin' everyone was a bunch of dumb shits?~

SHUT UP AND ENJOY THE MUSIC!
╭∩╮(︶︿︶)╭∩╮

Image
PreviousNext

Return to Bi-Amp / Bi-Wire

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Powered by phpBB © 2011 phpBB Group.