Bi amping speakers

Bi-Amp Bi-Wire information
Mr. M-500t
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Post by Mr. M-500t » Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:01 pm

Toy Maker wrote:Go straignt biamp 1st... listen to it, and see what you think before messing with the frequency curve... that's my penny and a halfs worth.
Strait Bi-Amped, No Cross Over at all ?

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Post by TNRabbit » Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:05 pm

Mr. M-500t wrote:
faustus wrote:If you bypass, as opposed to separating the legs of, your internal crossover, don't you have the "6kHz notch" to deal with, or is that only an issue with the Silvers and Platinums?
I don't think it will be a problem because the AL-III already have their own set of High Frequency, Upper Mid and Woofer "Q" Controls on them. We shall see. I made a friend here in Portland that did the same thing with his Carver speakers and he can't get enough of them. I just spoke with him again today. We're getting together next week-end. I think he has the Plat's.

You lost me there, 500; are you saying your friend bi-amped his AL-IIIs but still kept the three potentiometers?? They are built into the crossover; you can't bypass the crossover & still retain those...???
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Main: HotRodded AL-IIIs
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Post by Toy Maker » Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:05 pm

active crossover, and that's all... nothing after the amp but wires and the drivers.

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Post by Toy Maker » Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:09 pm

TNRabbit wrote:
Mr. M-500t wrote:
faustus wrote:If you bypass, as opposed to separating the legs of, your internal crossover, don't you have the "6kHz notch" to deal with, or is that only an issue with the Silvers and Platinums?
I don't think it will be a problem because the AL-III already have their own set of High Frequency, Upper Mid and Woofer "Q" Controls on them. We shall see. I made a friend here in Portland that did the same thing with his Carver speakers and he can't get enough of them. I just spoke with him again today. We're getting together next week-end. I think he has the Plat's.

You lost me there, 500; are you saying your friend bi-amped his AL-IIIs but still kept the three potentiometers?? They are built into the crossover; you can't bypass the crossover & still retain those...???
rabbit's right, you have to totally disconnect all wires from the terminals on the back side of the crossover and the wire to the drives, and run new wires straight from the terminals TO the drivers... winds up being a straight shot from the amps to the drivers.

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Post by TNRabbit » Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:12 pm

...otherwise he's simply bi-WIRING them....
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From FrankieD's lips to your ears: Sunfire - a quiet box of endless power.

Sunfire TG-IV/400~7 Amp
Carver SD/A-360 CDP
Benchmark DAC-1
Sony SACD/DVD-A
Active bi-amp: Ashly XR-1001 & 2 Rane PEQ-15s
Main: HotRodded AL-IIIs
Sub: Klipsch RT-12d
Center: Sunfire CRS-3c
Surround: Sunfire CRS-3 (x 2)

OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

RIP WIlliam B. Dibble, 1948-2012. I'll miss you my friend.

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Post by Mr. M-500t » Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:14 pm

rabbit's right, you have to totally disconnect all wires from the terminals on the back side of the crossover and the wire to the drives, and run new wires straight from the terminals TO the drivers... winds up being a straight shot from the amps to the drivers.

That's exactly what I'm going to do James & Rabbit !

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Post by bob p » Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:35 pm

Toy Maker wrote:It's funny, in the Car Audio world, Bi-Tri-amping is the standard. I don't understand why, in the home audio world, triamping is not such an odd thing.
tri-amping is not such an odd thing, really. check out the Lansing Heritage forum and you'll find LOTS of JBL tri-ampers. i've got friends who have tri-amped their JBL 3-way monitors, and I've given some thought to doing that once a couple of my amp projects are finished. why haven't i done it already? too many irons in the fire, you know.

another reason that tri-amping doesn't seem so popular around here is becuase a lot of guys are driving Amazings. its kinda hard to tri-amp a 2-way speaker, no?

in the past I've discussed penta-amping my infinity reference standard 9 kappas. but thats sheer overkill. realistically speaking, the big bang for the buck in biamping comes from getting rid of the back EMF associated with drivers that deal wtih 100 Hz or less. midbass drivers that handle bass above 100 Hz produce far less back EMF, which means that the sonic returns that you get from biamping the next crossover point have already fallen over the cliff of diminishing returns. maybe some home guys don't bother because they know that it won't help them much.

with that said, i'm still half thinking about tri-amping my IRS speakers just for the hell of it, but in reality the returns just aren't there to make it worth the trouble.
I also don't understand why an active crossover for the home is $1000 avg.
You can buy 3-4-5-6 channel Car audio crossovers for $100-200 anywhere. I would expect the internal electronics to be pretty close in parts. Why the HUGE price increase... Just cause they know you guys will pay it ??
i think its partly because the guys will pay it, and partly because people expect home hifi stuff to come in heavy metal boxes that put forth a masculine and appearance that makes it look like a trophy. more often than not the beauty that you pay for is only skin deep. Look at stuff like the C-2. Its pretty much an empty box. a really nice looking and expensive box, but more money was spent on the box for that preamp than on its guts. That's the name of the game in home HiFi.

Why do home crossovers cost $1000? because they're overpriced for what they are, and too much money gets pumped into the costmetics. if you look at ProAudio stuff instead of HiFi stuff, you can buy a new Rane for $400 instead of paying thousands for a crossover that's a piece of elite HiFi trophy gear.

Soundsream was/is one of the HIGH END car audio manufacturers, probably close to having Sunfire in your car. They have always had HUGE amps, and crossovers.
Everyone can laugh if you want, but a car crossover WILL run very well in your home system, for a fraction of the price. If you want to spend $1000 to split your frequencies 2 ways, feel free, I know the "tweekers" will.
I like the $100 used Rane AC22. cheaper than the car stuff, higher quality, and you don't even have to buy wall-wart from rat shack.
Carver Preamps: C-1, C-2, BillD's JVD-modded C-4000, C-9
Carver Amplifiers: BillD's C-500, M-1.5t (4) PM-1.5 (4) M-500t (2)
Repair/Restoration/Upgrade expert for all of these components.

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Post by bob p » Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:38 pm

Mr. M-500t wrote:rabbit's right, you have to totally disconnect all wires from the terminals on the back side of the crossover and the wire to the drives, and run new wires straight from the terminals TO the drivers... winds up being a straight shot from the amps to the drivers.

That's exactly what I'm going to do James & Rabbit !
well yes, but also no. if you totally bypass the entire internal crossover, you will cause the frequency response hump to appear that any notch filter in the crossover was taking away.

perhaps a better approach if you choose not to go with some form of EQ is to remove the high pass and low pass filters from the passive crossover, but retain the bandpass filter (aka notch filter) portion of the active crossovers. then the humps are taken care of and you don't need to fuss over EQ.
Last edited by bob p on Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Carver Preamps: C-1, C-2, BillD's JVD-modded C-4000, C-9
Carver Amplifiers: BillD's C-500, M-1.5t (4) PM-1.5 (4) M-500t (2)
Repair/Restoration/Upgrade expert for all of these components.

Mr. M-500t
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Post by Mr. M-500t » Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:38 pm

bob p wrote:
Toy Maker wrote:It's funny, in the Car Audio world, Bi-Tri-amping is the standard. I don't understand why, in the home audio world, triamping is not such an odd thing.
tri-amping is not such an odd thing, really. check out the Lansing Heritage forum and you'll find LOTS of JBL tri-ampers. i've got friends who have tri-amped their JBL 3-way monitors, and I've given some thought to doing that once a couple of my amp projects are finished. why haven't i done it already? too many irons in the fire, you know.

another reason that tri-amping doesn't seem so popular around here is becuase a lot of guys are driving Amazings. its kinda hard to tri-amp a 2-way speaker, no?

in the past I've discussed penta-amping my infinity reference standard 9 kappas. but thats sheer overkill. realistically speaking, the big bang for the buck in biamping comes from getting rid of the back EMF associated with drivers that deal wtih 100 Hz or less. midbass drivers that handle bass above 100 Hz produce far less back EMF, which means that the sonic returns that you get from biamping the next crossover point have already fallen over the cliff of diminishing returns. maybe some home guys don't bother because they know that it won't help them much.

with that said, i'm still half thinking about tri-amping my IRS speakers just for the hell of it, but in reality the returns just aren't there to make it worth the trouble.
I also don't understand why an active crossover for the home is $1000 avg.
You can buy 3-4-5-6 channel Car audio crossovers for $100-200 anywhere. I would expect the internal electronics to be pretty close in parts. Why the HUGE price increase... Just cause they know you guys will pay it ??
i think its partly because the guys will pay it, and partly because people expect home hifi stuff to come in heavy metal boxes that put forth a masculine and appearance that makes it look like a trophy. more often than not the beauty that you pay for is only skin deep. Look at stuff like the C-2. Its pretty much an empty box. a really nice looking and expensive box, but more money was spent on the box for that preamp than on its guts. That's the name of the game in home HiFi.

Why do home crossovers cost $1000? because they're overpriced for what they are, and too much money gets pumped into the costmetics. if you look at ProAudio stuff instead of HiFi stuff, you can buy a new Rane for $400 instead of paying thousands for a crossover that's a piece of elite HiFi trophy gear.

Soundsream was/is one of the HIGH END car audio manufacturers, probably close to having Sunfire in your car. They have always had HUGE amps, and crossovers.
Everyone can laugh if you want, but a car crossover WILL run very well in your home system, for a fraction of the price. If you want to spend $1000 to split your frequencies 2 ways, feel free, I know the "tweekers" will.
I like the $100 used Rane AC22. cheaper than the car stuff, higher quality, and you don't even have to buy wall-wart from rat shack.
Plus it's made in the U.S.A. \:D/ \:D/ \:D/

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Post by bob p » Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:40 pm

Mr. M-500t wrote:Plus it's made in the U.S.A. \:D/ \:D/ \:D/
now if it were only made from the recycled steel of the World Trade Center!
Carver Preamps: C-1, C-2, BillD's JVD-modded C-4000, C-9
Carver Amplifiers: BillD's C-500, M-1.5t (4) PM-1.5 (4) M-500t (2)
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Post by Mr. M-500t » Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:46 pm

bob p wrote:
Mr. M-500t wrote:Plus it's made in the U.S.A. \:D/ \:D/ \:D/
now if it were only made from the recycled steel of the World Trade Center!
How Kuul would that be ? \:D/

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Post by BillD » Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:48 pm

If you disconnect the woofers from the ribbons (remove the jumper) and separate the frequencies with an electronic crossover before the amps, you are bi-amping (not bi-wiring), even if you leave the internal passive crossovers intact. Indeed, on AL-IIIs with the ribbon notch, unless you want to do more active equalization, it should be done this way. I've toyed with removing the low-pass filter off the woofers, but haven't done so yet, primarily because I don't know what that would do to the phase of the output with respect to the ribbons. It says that the woofer system is "Quasi-butterworth third order aligned". I would take that to be a 270° phase shift. Might be hard to get that aligned with the ribbons if they have their crossover intact.
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Post by Mr. M-500t » Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:54 pm

BillD wrote:If you disconnect the woofers from the ribbons (remove the jumper) and separate the frequencies with an electronic crossover before the amps, you are bi-amping (not bi-wiring), even if you leave the internal passive crossovers intact. Indeed, on AL-IIIs with the ribbon notch, unless you want to do more active equalization, it should be done this way. I've toyed with removing the low-pass filter off the woofers, but haven't done so yet, primarily because I don't know what that would do to the phase of the output with respect to the ribbons. It says that the woofer system is "Quasi-butterworth third order aligned". I would take that to be a 270° phase shift. Might be hard to get that aligned with the ribbons if they have their crossover intact.
I am not going to use the AL-III Crossovers at all Bill !
I am going to bypass them and use a 500t for each speaker and run them with the Rane in between them and my C-16 or I can run it through an external processor loop.

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Post by bob p » Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:59 pm

Bill's got a good point -- you absolutely MUST pay attention to the phase relationships when you're doing the crossover thing! If you go back and read those RANE tech notes that were probably mentioned on page 3 of this thread, you'll see that the phase angles were disussed previously.

depending upon the slope of your original crossovers, you may have to reverse the polarity of your HF segment to maintain phase alignment. get it backwards: will sound like ass.

back to the bi-wiring thing -- my understanding of biwiring has always been more like bill's than like rabbit's. i didn't mention it because there's a limit to how much rehashing i can stay interested in after 17 pages!
Carver Preamps: C-1, C-2, BillD's JVD-modded C-4000, C-9
Carver Amplifiers: BillD's C-500, M-1.5t (4) PM-1.5 (4) M-500t (2)
Repair/Restoration/Upgrade expert for all of these components.

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Post by Mr. M-500t » Sat Oct 20, 2007 9:03 pm

Should be an easy fix then !

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