Custom amp created by Bob Carver (AND I SHIT ON IT)

You just don't seem to grasp that you're unlikely to gain much traction in badmouthing Bob Carver on the websites that are devoted to the very person you seek to vilify.

I'm sure you are right, too many here have their head up his ass and can't see daylight. Don't get me wrong, I've met the man and like him. I like some of his products as well, but there's still NO excuse for that lack of craftsmanship. If I ever did a job like that for one of my customers I have no doubt I'd be taken to court.

If I ever did a job like that for one of my customers I have no doubt I'd be taken to court.

I'm not sure Mr Carver could be held liable for anything here, he was commissioned to place one of his amps inside another amps chassis, seems he has delivered the goods. If you pay a mechanic to replace the engine in your car he certainly isn't going to "dress it up" unless 1) it has been talked about and agreed upon, 2) has been compensated accordingly for the additional time and costs.

I believe this whole thing is most likely the result of poor communication / negotiating. Bob obviously didn't think his amp would see the light of day concealed inside this chassis and through their discussions was probably told to keep the price as low as possible. (I'm assuming here) If you think about it, the price he paid was barely enough to have a brand new 20 watt amp installed inside there. Again, at the $42 per watt figure I came up with earlier for a new, show quality production model it should of cost $4200 just for the amp, then add in the additional labor charges for the custom install and you're easily over the $5k mark. So he ended up with a few poorly painted covers that you would never see (and could easily repaint) unless you remove the top cover and saved a couple grand. I have to wonder, had the original amp been repairable would he be showing off the insides to his friends afterwards? There's a big difference between restoring something to operable condition and creating a show piece, these things were obviously not discussed in any detail during the commissioning / negotiating stage otherwise there wouldn't be this discussion now.

I believe this whole thing is most likely the result of poor communication / negotiating. Bob obviously didn't think his amp would see the light of day concealed inside this chassis and through their discussions was probably told to keep the price as low as possible. (I'm assuming here) If you think about it, the price he paid was barely enough to have a brand new 20 watt amp installed inside there. Again, at the $42 per watt figure I came up with earlier for a new, show quality production model it should of cost $4200 just for the amp, then add in the additional labor charges for the custom install and you're easily over the $5k mark. So he ended up with a few poorly painted covers that you would never see (and could easily repaint) unless you remove the top cover and saved a couple grand. I have to wonder, had the original amp been repairable would he be showing off the insides to his friends afterwards? There's a big difference between restoring something to operable condition and creating a show piece, these things were obviously not discussed in any detail during the commissioning / negotiating stage otherwise there wouldn't be this discussion now.

ditto, well said.

I'm not sure Mr Carver could be held liable for anything here, he was commissioned to place one of his amps inside another amps chassis, seems he has delivered the goods. If you pay a mechanic to replace the engine in your car he certainly isn't going to "dress it up" unless 1) it has been talked about and agreed upon, 2) has been compensated accordingly for the additional time and costs.

Horrible analogy and yes, he is liable for delivering a shoddy product. Period.

Horrible analogy and yes, he is liable for delivering a shoddy product. Period.

I don't know how you could say anything "period" without knowing the exact terms of the negotiation.

Regardless of anything else, the buyer is not happy with the product he received as it is not what he expected. As a good business practice, the seller should make it right regardless. Saying that you never want to hear from the buyer again is as inexcusable as the crappy craftsmanship. It would have taken very little effort and time to say, sorry, send the covers back to me and I'll make sure the paint is right. You have a happy customer and your reputation remains in good standing. It's called good will.

the whole issue is bob did not paint squat. did extra work that is always above and beyond. was it slack, yes. but as jj said, with out details, it is all a guess.

You just don't seem to grasp that you're unlikely to gain much traction in badmouthing Bob Carver on the websites that are devoted to the very person you seek to vilify.

I'm sure you are right, too many here have their head up his ass and can't see daylight. Don't get me wrong, I've met the man and like him. I like some of his products as well, but there's still NO excuse for that lack of craftsmanship. If I ever did a job like that for one of my customers I have no doubt I'd be taken to court.

WTF!! You're joking right???? It does say CARVER at the top of the page. Jesse you restore furniture... correct? I would expect 'your' customers to be pissed if you didn't restore a fine piece properly, but Bob was asked to build an amplifier not do extensive body work. He ain't Chip Foose, Boyd Coddington, Greg of Akron or Squeege Jergens, he's just a lil' old amp builder from Snohomish.I have noticed Don hasn't mentioned paying for body work and paint, just building an amp. Sounds to me like that was a complete success. I think this is just a case of sour grapes and somebody was trying to get something for nothing.

Hell don send them to me I'll paint 'em for you.

ray

No Ray, I'm not fucking joking.

Your analogy is akin to having a cabinetmaker build a custom piece of furniture, let's say a built-in that's going behind some closet doors. However, it will be seen by you and many others when the doors are opened for use. The guy slaps a coat of house paint on it complete with runs, drips and brush marks. You'd be happy with that? You'd cut him some slack because his cabinetmaker skills are top notch??? Hell no, you'd be pissed because a proper finish is always part of the job.

I have noticed Don hasn't mentioned paying for body work and paint, just building an amp. Sounds to me like that was a complete success. I think this is just a case of sour grapes and somebody was trying to get something for nothing.

Hell don send them to me I'll paint 'em for you.

ray[/quote]




Just so there is no confusion, we now have two (Don and d0n) on the board.

Ray, I have nothing to send ya! However, my house could use a paint job

I really didn't want to jump on this thread because Bob Carver is not available to give his side of the story, but I think dOn needs some perspective. I do not know the details of what Bob and dOn agreed on in terms of the cosmetics of the amp. But it seems like dOn did not explain to Bob that cosmetics was a deal breaker. There was assumption made by dOn that the amps should have flawless finish based on his posted expectations (eg, wanting to show off to his friends, etc), and probably assumption by Bob that the cosmetic was not a real issue since the amp is going to be hidden inside the outer chassis. Based on my current amp build, things can get really expensive fast, especially chassis work. In high end audio, chassis work can be as high as 50% to 60% of the cost of the amp. I am stickler for cosmetics as well, and I am willing shell out the money for flawless finish. I recently inquired about having my chassis professionally painted using automotive paint and got quotes ranging from $500 to $600, which is considered reasonable. If I want Wilson Audio like automotive finish, I can expect to pay much more. I do feel your disappointment. However, given what you have paid for the amp build, I don't think it is unreasonable for Bob to have not paid attention to the cosmetics. Based on my past experiences with custom builds, it is imperative that one spells out exactly what is expected in the finished product (eg, a written agreement via email).

a proper finish is always part of the job.

Ding ding ding!

If I want Wilson Audio like automotive finish, I can expect to pay much more.

Did you SEE the photos of the transformer covers? Go look at them again.

I am not upset because my amp doesn't have a flawless piano black finish. I am upset because zero consideration was given to the amplifiers asthetics by the builder. I am upset because I COULD HAVE PAINTED THE TRANSFORMERS WITH A SPRAY CAN and made them look 100% better than the legendary Bob Carver did.

The fact that the amp is in another chassis is not an excuse. The fact that I ONLY paid $2795 (+ $370 shipping) is not an excuse.

FWIW......those covers look like they're probably still painted just the way they were when they were manufactured/sold/shipped/received. I personally have seen that caliber of paint work many times on brand new stuff, it was usually coming from somewhere in Asia. I seriously doubt that they were ever painted by Bob or any of his associates. If they were.......somebody needs their glasses/eyes checked.