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Silver-1 Tube Preamp - !!! PROJECT ON HOLD !!!

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Toy Maker

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Post Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:28 pm

Re: Silver-1 Tube Preamp - FOR SALE

I don't know why they use that word.... DEflation of the dollar sounds a little more correct to me [-(
We will be the next Mexico soon...
Canada will be subing their work down to us. If we can re-teach people to do things again. ](*,)
Whatever you do in life will be insignificant, but it's very important that you do it... because nobody else will.

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SHUT UP AND ENJOY THE MUSIC!
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gdb

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Post Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:27 am

Re: Silver-1 Tube Preamp - FOR SALE

On "esoteric" limited run pieces like the Silver tube amps, I've always wondered what was the exact cost to "put one in the box" ie. parts,fabrication & assembly,and....how much was bloated markup/profit to create exclusivity and mystique??? There CAN NOT be the same materials & labor costs in an amp as there is in a Brand New Automobile !!! :-s
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Toy Maker

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Post Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:01 am

Re: Silver-1 Tube Preamp - FOR SALE

You can't buy a set of speakers that cost as much as a house either.
$235,000

http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/g1p1.html

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Whatever you do in life will be insignificant, but it's very important that you do it... because nobody else will.

‎~You think Einstein walked around thinkin' everyone was a bunch of dumb shits?~

SHUT UP AND ENJOY THE MUSIC!
╭∩╮(︶︿︶)╭∩╮
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gdb

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Post Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:21 am

Re: Silver-1 Tube Preamp - FOR SALE

My question/point is not what the cost to buy is,but, what is the actual cost to produce??? :-k
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Dreamer

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Post Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:21 am

Re: Silver-1 Tube Preamp - FOR SALE

Obi,

I don't know if it's so much inflation or deflation, but genuine fair market value. According to most sources, an electronics engineer with 20+ years experience makes an annual salary between $80,000 and $100,000. Let's just say, for sake of argument that if we figure in the R&D, the outsourcing to machinists for the chassis and case, and outsourcing to a PCB manufacturer to make the boards, plus construction time of the actual amp, that a two man operation could build twenty four individual Silver 7's (12 pairs) in a year. Even if you don't count cost of materials, outsourcing, or overhead, JUST to cover two $90k salaries, you'd need to charge $15,000 each pair.

Now let's figure that a matched pair of decent-quality 6550s (or KT88s) runs about $50 wholesale, plus another $50 for the smaller tubes, total. You're looking at just over $400 EACH AMP for tubes (that's $800+ in tubes for a pair of monoblocks). Figure in the ultra-high-end circuit boards, discrete components, wiring, and the outstanding chassis and case construction in what is essentially a "non-production" model amp, and you're pushing $5-7k for a pair of these babies, just in parts. Ad that to the $15k for the salaries of the two theoretical people who designed and constructed these amps, and you're looking at about $20-22k for a pair.

And that doesn't include marketing, or built-in costs to cover the lifetime warranty work that Bob would most likely offer on such a piece of gear, or the crates you'd need to ship them safely.

By the time you figure all the costs in--design, construction, parts, marketing, warranty, packaging and support--you're EASILY looking at $25-30k, and that's really just to break even.

I sure as hell can't afford a $20,000 amplifier, but I can understand why they would cost that much. When you're not using counterfeit crap-ass parts or paying your employees slave wages like most of the Asian OEMs, and when you offer outstanding support and warranties (unlike the ChiCom manufacturers), charging this much for an amp of the caliber of the Silver 7 is, when you get down to it, really just a pretty fair price.

--Richard
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Toy Maker

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Post Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:28 am

Re: Silver-1 Tube Preamp - FOR SALE

The biggest cost would be the R&D, and setup for the subcontractors. Making 1 of anything is usually 10x the cost of 1 if you run 100 of them.
Whatever you do in life will be insignificant, but it's very important that you do it... because nobody else will.

‎~You think Einstein walked around thinkin' everyone was a bunch of dumb shits?~

SHUT UP AND ENJOY THE MUSIC!
╭∩╮(︶︿︶)╭∩╮
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TNRabbit

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Post Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:23 am

Re: Silver-1 Tube Preamp - FOR SALE

[quote="Toy Maker"]You can't buy a set of speakers that cost as much as a house either.
$235,000

Image

Check back for the details of the updated Genesis flagship 1.2 speaker system to be launched in the 1st quarter of 2009 with twice the number of woofers powered by the new Genesis Servo Controlled Amplifier priced at $235,000 per system.

A product with an exacting quality all covet, but few achieve; Its sonic ability which is the aspiration of all other speakers. The Genesis 1.1 is a product people long to own. Few have seen or even heard this loudspeaker, but all who own it wouldn't trade it in for anything else! It is the world's ultimate cost-no-object reference loudspeaker system.

This is one of the very few speakers in the world that is capable of recreating the size, weight, impact, and listening levels of a live performance with ease. Any passage, no matter how demanding, is reproduced with absolute fidelity. The Genesis 1.1 creates one of the most convincing soundstages in the world, short of being there yourself - be it a large orchestral performance, a rock concert, or a solo unamplified voice.

For film enthusiasts, the Genesis 1.1 plays with all the delicacy to render the softest whisper to the loudest roar of a dinosaur. The power handling of this loudspeaker is unlimited in a real-world sense.
Technical Details

The Genesis 1.1 consists of four major modules: two midrange/tweeter screens and two bass towers. Each module is 7.5' tall, and is covered in the most beautiful plantation grown South American rosewood that money can buy, and hand finished to the most exacting furniture grade standards possible.

Each of the midrange/tweeter panels is 42" wide and houses a 75" tall ribbon midrange with twenty ribbon tweeters on the front and six in the rear to form a near perfect dipolar line source array. Each baffle is machined out of a solid piece of one inch thick black Corian.

The tweeter is our own proprietary 1" ribbon built from an incredibly thin membrane of Kapton and aluminum (.0005" thick). Behind the flat diaphragm of the tweeter is the motor, a precision machined and focused magnetic structure.

The midrange module is a single 75" dipolar ribbon driver. A push /pull dipole configuration was chosen to eliminate the distortion inherent in many single ended ribbon designs. The diaphragm of this driver is made of a 0.001" thick Mylar film laminated with a thin aluminum strip, which acts as the voice coil of the driver. The entire device is suspended in a powerful magnetic field created by over 30 feet of Ceramic 8 magnets.

At 7.5' tall and 18" wide, the two bass towers each house six servo-controlled twelve inch metal cone woofers individually driven by a pair of six channel servo amplifiers connected to the woofers via custom 3,000 watt hand-crafted servo-bass cables. The fully discrete servo amplifiers are remote controlled. Functions include volume, low pass, high pass, phase and power. Inside each, there are three toroidal transformers that deliver the power, which is adjustable to any line voltage a customer might desire.

The crossover module for each of the midrange/tweeter panels is housed in a separate Corian enclosure with a tuned suspension system to isolate it acoustically. Inside the crossover, Genesis has incorporated the world's first multiple tap copper foil inductor for the midrange and our own proprietary polypropylene film and foil capacitors for the tweeter array.

The complete Genesis 1.1 system consisting of the six separate elements weighs over 1 l/4 tons and is shipped in six wooden crates.
TNRabbit
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OBI56

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Post Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:32 pm

Re: Silver-1 Tube Preamp - FOR SALE

Richard, I wasn't saying that the price was out of line, just that inflation is the reason for the probabl sellig price going from $20k to the 30K range. These are essentially hand crafted, almost custom pieces that require a LOT more work than your run of the mill mass market amp. Considering what they are, $30k is not at all out of line. What I was really saying is that expecting to get a reproduction of a Silver 7 or Silver 9 tube amp built today for $5 to $6k is what is unreasonable. I certainly don't have that kind of money available nor would I necessarily want to buy a set if I did have the money.

James did bring up a good point concerning Bob's new tube amps; at $5 to $6k a pair, they are quite the bargain especially when compared to what it would cost to reproduce the Silver 7 tube amps.
Why let facts or common sense get in the way of your opinions.
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Rainman

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Post Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:42 am

Re: Silver-1 Tube Preamp - FOR SALE

The way I look at it is the word over priced is a relative thing. It is in direct relation to the person attempting to attach it to something. Let me put it this way, is a new BMW M5 overpriced? If you ask me the answer is a definite No, however I don't own one and presently can't afford one, but my answer is unaffected. Then there is the person who when asked if a BMW M5 is overpriced will answer it's waaay overpriced, but this same person will also tell you a Chevy Caviler is waaay overpriced!
At the end of the day there are certain points at which price becomes irrelevant. Trust me, I have seen a growing number of friends go in shopping for a new average price CD player and walk out having spent $8,000 on a pair of speakers which they enjoy beyond words everyday! It happened to me....... I almost bought a pair of B&W speakers and all of a sudden "price became irrelevant!" If that tube pre does the same thing that "certain" speakers have done to people I can promise you that will be another point where price will become irrelevant! \:D/ \:D/

Rainman
Question: Do you know why turds are tapered on the ends? Answer: So your asshole doesn't slam shut..

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BillD

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Post Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:45 pm

Re: Silver-1 Tube Preamp - FOR SALE

It's the M6 that's overpriced! :lol:
It should sound like it isn't there!
There is a difference between hearing and listening...
Making life enjoyable through expensive electronics.
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Carver: C-4000 & C-1 preamps, PSC-60 preamp/tuner, TX-11a tuner, M-400 (2), C-500, M-500, M-500t, M-500t Mk.II, A-500x, AL-III loudspeakers (2 pr.)
Sunfire:Theater Grand III processor, Ultimate Receiver, Cinema Grand Signature 400 ~ seven, True Subwoofer Mk. II, D-10 Subwoofer
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Phantom602

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Post Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:14 pm

Re: Silver-1 Tube Preamp - FOR SALE

It all depends on the pre-amp and the quality of parts used and of course how it sounds. I'm presently using a pre-amp that costs over $13k and find it is well worth the money!! It is a high quality product and sounds fantastic. When spending this kind of money for me it is important to get to know the product. I don’t buy a car without a test drive and I would not buy most audio components without listening to them with my system. Synergy with my system is important.

I work for a manufacturing company and I can understand the costs associated with building a limited run. To get PCBAs built, sheet metal, buttons and knobs molded, test equipment and so forth costs money. The question is there other pre-amps that can be had that sound as good for this money or for less?

I hope this project works out. I would love to listen to one, and maybe A-B it with my Pre.
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EmSquare NC

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Post Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:14 pm

Re: Silver-1 Tube Preamp - FOR SALE

Something that occurred to me...

A user like myself would only be using the line stage part of the preamplifier for the time being. That being the case, I would rather not even turn the phono section on. How easy would it be to do that? Or could a reasonable feature (like a secondary power switch on the back or internal jumper/s) be incorporated for that purpose?
* NAD 541i > Behringer SRC2496 > Monarchy Audio NM24 * NAD C160 preamplifier * Marchand XM9 crossover (modified) * Sunfire Cinema Grand, Sig II * Magnepan 2.6 * Velodyne CT-150 *
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Rainman

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Post Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:57 pm

Re: Silver-1 Tube Preamp - FOR SALE

Phantom602 wrote:It all depends on the pre-amp and the quality of parts used and of course how it sounds. I'm presently using a pre-amp that costs over $13k and find it is well worth the money!! It is a high quality product and sounds fantastic. When spending this kind of money for me it is important to get to know the product. I don’t buy a car without a test drive and I would not buy most audio components without listening to them with my system. Synergy with my system is important.

I work for a manufacturing company and I can understand the costs associated with building a limited run. To get PCBAs built, sheet metal, buttons and knobs molded, test equipment and so forth costs money. The question is there other pre-amps that can be had that sound as good for this money or for less?

I hope this project works out. I would love to listen to one, and maybe A-B it with my Pre.


I can't predict how the Carver pre will compare with your current pre, however there is one thing to consider.. your current pre does not say Carver on it :D
What I mean by that is in my system I could be running my speakers in their "Aktiv" config. which consists of a Linn Aktive tunebox (crossover) controlling 6 Linn amplifiers for the 2 speakers. You probably don't want to know what the cost of the Aktiv set up is :shock: I choose not to run our speakers in the Aktiv mode. To many peoples surprise, and ridicule we run them with our Carver gear. We like running them with a Carver tube CD, and an amp that Bob designed to sound as much like his silver 7 tube amp as possible. This set up delivers a sound that is warm, smooth yet very precise, inviting, and fun. It will definitely not equal the Aktiv mode if you have a computer analyzer listening to it, but I prefer to listen with my ears instead of reading a printout telling me about it. The Carver gear and cables presents a Big soundstage that is truly 3d and pinpoint precise. The Aktiv mode does many things as well, and some better, but it just seems like the music looses something somewhere and the music just does not seem to be nearly as fun. Other people who own Linn gear usually laugh at us not using the several thousand dollars worth of Aktiv gear until they hear the speakers runing in "Carver mode" for the first time. Then they can't laugh because their jaw is on the floor. Many of our friends have visited for an audition of our speakers wondering why the Carver gear. Almost every one of them have bought similar speakers or are looking for a pair as well as some gear designed by Mr. Carver! =D>
I guess the moral of the novel is I certainly would not be surprised at all to see pictures of your non Carver pre in a for sale listing on Audiogon. Can't guarantee it, but there is a good chance you may find your jaw on the floor during your audition of the Silver 1 pre..... :shock:

Rainman :D
Question: Do you know why turds are tapered on the ends? Answer: So your asshole doesn't slam shut..

Carver- SDA490t, SDA450, 2 TFM45's, TFM15, CT23, CT28v, CT27v, Linn Kaber speakers, Sunfire crm2's, PS Audio Statement speaker cables and I/C's, A.P.C. power
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Toy Maker

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Post Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:13 pm

Re: Silver-1 Tube Preamp - FOR SALE

I had thought it best not to post this for a while, but the more I think about it, I don't see where it can really do any harm to anyone.
After talking to Bob, and verifying that it IS the Silver-1 pre, my father got his hand son, I asked him which was better, the Silver-1 or the Sunfire tube pre. He told me the Silver-1 was WAY better. Then he started getting all technical, and he lost me. I will try to get him to write his feelings on the 2 in an email, and I will post it, if he does.
I got the feeling, the Silver-1 preamp, was built the same way the 1st Lightstar amp was, with no regard for $$, as where the Sunfire Pre, and the LS-2 and were both designed to be more cost effective production models
Looking at the back of the Silver-1 preamp, it looks alot like the C-19... (Silver-1 high end verson / C-19 producton model ???)
Whatever you do in life will be insignificant, but it's very important that you do it... because nobody else will.

‎~You think Einstein walked around thinkin' everyone was a bunch of dumb shits?~

SHUT UP AND ENJOY THE MUSIC!
╭∩╮(︶︿︶)╭∩╮
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Phantom602

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Post Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:45 pm

Re: Silver-1 Tube Preamp - FOR SALE

I would like nothing more than to listen to the Silver 1 in my system. I have nothing but admiration and respect for Bob Carver. I have and do own many Carver and Sunfire products. It is just that my taste has moved towards the sound of tubes and so my change over to Conrad Johnson.

This is why I’m very intrigued by the Silver 1 (tube pre). Trust me if I could get my hands on a silver 7 I would do it in a minute. Once the Silver 1 is produced I would be happy to A - B it against my CJ ACT 2 and give you my impressions. Who knows shortly the CJ may be up for sale on Audiogon.
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