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Help with Bi-Amping Originals

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BrianT

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Post Sat Oct 03, 2009 6:20 pm

Help with Bi-Amping Originals

I picked up a set of ALS Originals, I tried using my Sunfire 300x2 to drive them.
That was OK on low volume, but once I cranked it up, no go. :(

I would like to Bi-Amp these to get the best out of them.

I was very luck, and managed to pick up a Clearview active crossover. :D
I am working on a deal for 2 x 60" ribbons, do not know if it will work out as the seller has other offers. :?

What would the best way to go?

Both options I would remove the power hungry Carver crossover in the ALS Originals.

1) As I already own a Sunfire 300x2, purchase a second 300x2 and use 1 for the Ribbons and 1 for the honey cone woofers.

2) Sell my 300x2 and purchase a Sunfire Signature 400x5 use 2 channels for the ribbons and 2 channels for the honey cone woffers.

Opinions please.

Brian.
Ottawa, Canada.
VPI Classic Turntable (blk)
Transfiguration Phoenix Cartridge
Sunfire Vacuum Tube Control Centre. C/W Mod'ed Phono Stage
Carver Silver 7's Tube Amps
Raysonic CD-168 CDP (silver)
Carver TX11.
B&W 802D's Rosenut
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Toy Maker

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Post Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:02 pm

Re: Help with Bi-Amping Originals

I'd say get a 2nd 300x2 and see how that goes, if it still insn't enough power go to the 400x5.
If THAT isn't enough (which it should be) upgrade to (2) 600x2's

I would honestly expect the (2) 300x2's to work just fine for you though.
and YES dump the passive crossovers if you are going to use the Clearview !!!
If you re-wire them, make sure you keep everythung in phase as you go.

Goodluck,

James
Whatever you do in life will be insignificant, but it's very important that you do it 'cause nobody else will

‎~You think Einstein walked around thinkin' everyone was a bunch of dumb shits?~

SHUT UP AND ENJOY THE MUSIC!
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thuffman03

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Post Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:32 pm

Re: Help with Bi-Amping Originals

If you go with the 400x5 I call dibs on buying your 300x2!
Some cool Carver stuff!
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BrianT

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Post Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:32 am

Re: Help with Bi-Amping Originals

Toy Maker wrote:I'd say get a 2nd 300x2 and see how that goes, if it still insn't enough power go to the 400x5.
If THAT isn't enough (which it should be) upgrade to (2) 600x2's

I would honestly expect the (2) 300x2's to work just fine for you though.
and YES dump the passive crossovers if you are going to use the Clearview !!!
If you re-wire them, make sure you keep everythung in phase as you go.

Goodluck,

James


James.

I would love to go through the complete line of Sunfire amps trying them all. But as I only have enough
cash to purchase once I have to do it right the 1st time.

We all know (2) 600x2 would work great, but not a reality. :(
I think (2) 300x2 would work fine, think I am going to start to look for a second 300x2

Brian
VPI Classic Turntable (blk)
Transfiguration Phoenix Cartridge
Sunfire Vacuum Tube Control Centre. C/W Mod'ed Phono Stage
Carver Silver 7's Tube Amps
Raysonic CD-168 CDP (silver)
Carver TX11.
B&W 802D's Rosenut
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BrianT

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Pair of Silver Sevens

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Post Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:34 am

Re: Help with Bi-Amping Originals

thuffman03 wrote:If you go with the 400x5 I call dibs on buying your 300x2!


Tom.

You where fast. Hope all's well in Pittsburgh.

Brian.
VPI Classic Turntable (blk)
Transfiguration Phoenix Cartridge
Sunfire Vacuum Tube Control Centre. C/W Mod'ed Phono Stage
Carver Silver 7's Tube Amps
Raysonic CD-168 CDP (silver)
Carver TX11.
B&W 802D's Rosenut
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treitz3

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Post Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:57 am

Re: Help with Bi-Amping Originals

Brian, you may want to consider getting the Lightstar amp for the Originals. It's one of the few amps that will bring out the best of them.
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to a good analogue reproduction.

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frankieD

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Post Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:39 pm

Re: Help with Bi-Amping Originals

Brian, I think you may get the best "bang for your buck" with the Sunfire 5400. Offsetting the cost with the sale of your 300 x 2. People are already interested in it.


The 5400 with 400 Sunfire (high current) bi-amped watts will be a sure thing as far as bringing the best out in the speakers

Good luck. These amps seem to be going for less now.

Frank.
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BrianT

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Post Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:35 pm

Re: Help with Bi-Amping Originals

frankieD wrote:Brian, I think you may get the best "bang for your buck" with the Sunfire 5400. Offsetting the cost with the sale of your 300 x 2. People are already interested in it.


The 5400 with 400 Sunfire (high current) bi-amped watts will be a sure thing as far as bringing the best out in the speakers

Good luck. These amps seem to be going for less now.

Frank.


Frank,

I tend to think like you 400 per channel (with high current), but the 5400 is the newer amp, still out out of my price range.
If I could find a Sunfire 400x5 series 2 for a good price I would jump on it, and then sell my 300x2.

Brian
VPI Classic Turntable (blk)
Transfiguration Phoenix Cartridge
Sunfire Vacuum Tube Control Centre. C/W Mod'ed Phono Stage
Carver Silver 7's Tube Amps
Raysonic CD-168 CDP (silver)
Carver TX11.
B&W 802D's Rosenut
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frankieD

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Post Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:38 pm

Re: Help with Bi-Amping Originals

Brian, what I said goes for the 400 x 5 as well.

I just think these 5 channel high power amps are a relative bargain compared to buying 2 2 channel amps.

Frank.
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BillD

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Post Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:13 pm

Re: Help with Bi-Amping Originals

I use four channels of my 400 ~ seven to biamp my AL-IIIs. WIth a 400x5 you could use 4 and have the one left over for a center. Then you could put the 300x2 on the surrounds. FOr stereo, you wouldn't even have to turn the 300x2 on.
It should sound like it isn't there!
There is a difference between hearing and listening...
Making life enjoyable through expensive electronics.
_________________
Carver: C-4000 & C-1 preamps, PSC-60 preamp/tuner, TX-11a tuner, M-400 (2), C-500, M-500, M-500t, M-500t Mk.II, A-500x, AL-III loudspeakers (2 pr.)
Sunfire:Theater Grand III processor, Ultimate Receiver, Cinema Grand Signature 400 ~ seven, True Subwoofer Mk. II, D-10 Subwoofer
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BrianT

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Post Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:32 pm

Re: Help with Bi-Amping Originals

BillD wrote:I use four channels of my 400 ~ seven to biamp my AL-IIIs. WIth a 400x5 you could use 4 and have the one left over for a center. Then you could put the 300x2 on the surrounds. FOr stereo, you wouldn't even have to turn the 300x2 on.


Bill,

I am not planing on using it in a 5-1 system, 2 channel only. So I would have no need for the 300x2 and selling it would help with the cost of a 400x5.

Have you removed the crossovers in your AL's III?, do they get plenty loud.

Brian.
VPI Classic Turntable (blk)
Transfiguration Phoenix Cartridge
Sunfire Vacuum Tube Control Centre. C/W Mod'ed Phono Stage
Carver Silver 7's Tube Amps
Raysonic CD-168 CDP (silver)
Carver TX11.
B&W 802D's Rosenut
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BillD

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(pair of) SILVER-7 TUBE AMPs

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Post Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:43 pm

Re: Help with Bi-Amping Originals

Not yet on removing the crossovers on the AL-IIIs, because I can't get a schematic (Bob Carver said he would try to find one) to characterize the crossover so I could do it externally. I am crossing at 150Hz using a Rane AC-22, and have plenty of power to drive them with the crossover in. If I ever get in there, I'll probably disconnect the bass part (although, I'm sure it's a simple LC circuit, and not using up too much power) and up the crossover point to 200Hz. I'm pretty sure the damping pot on the woofer is simply connected to the woofer negative terminal to ground to add more impedance.

I worked with Reese to bi-amp his Amazing Platinums (upgraded from originals) where we removed the crossovers altogether and, with a whole bunch of tweaking, simulated the internal crossover with a pair of Rane PE-15 parametric equalizers. They sound absolutely awesome. One thing that really improved the bass response and imaging was aligning the woofer voice coils to the ribbon plane. A modification to the Rane AC-22 that we used as a crossover (at 200Hz) allows the ribbon to be delayed slightly so that the sound from the woofers can "catch up" to the ribbon. The time-alignment really makes a big difference.
It should sound like it isn't there!
There is a difference between hearing and listening...
Making life enjoyable through expensive electronics.
_________________
Carver: C-4000 & C-1 preamps, PSC-60 preamp/tuner, TX-11a tuner, M-400 (2), C-500, M-500, M-500t, M-500t Mk.II, A-500x, AL-III loudspeakers (2 pr.)
Sunfire:Theater Grand III processor, Ultimate Receiver, Cinema Grand Signature 400 ~ seven, True Subwoofer Mk. II, D-10 Subwoofer
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BrianT

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Pair of Silver Sevens

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Post Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:20 pm

Re: Help with Bi-Amping Originals

BillD wrote:I worked with Reese to bi-amp his Amazing Platinums (upgraded from originals) where we removed the crossovers altogether and, with a whole bunch of tweaking, simulated the internal crossover with a pair of Rane PE-15 parametric equalizers. They sound absolutely awesome. One thing that really improved the bass response and imaging was aligning the woofer voice coils to the ribbon plane. A modification to the Rane AC-22 that we used as a crossover (at 200Hz) allows the ribbon to be delayed slightly so that the sound from the woofers can "catch up" to the ribbon. The time-alignment really makes a big difference.


Bill,

I did follow your Bi-Amping of Reese's ALS Plat's, I found it very informative. The only thing that I did not understand was the time alignment that you did. I thought that the Rane AC-22 had adjustable time delays built into it, so by adjusting a front pod you could adjust the delay. (please correct me)

Do you happen to know if the Clearview CRX-1 crossover has a built in time delay on the Ribbons, for Ribbon/Woofer alignment.

Brian.
VPI Classic Turntable (blk)
Transfiguration Phoenix Cartridge
Sunfire Vacuum Tube Control Centre. C/W Mod'ed Phono Stage
Carver Silver 7's Tube Amps
Raysonic CD-168 CDP (silver)
Carver TX11.
B&W 802D's Rosenut
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BillD

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(pair of) SILVER-7 TUBE AMPs

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Post Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:09 pm

Re: Help with Bi-Amping Originals

Brian, don't know about the Clearview. The Rane AC-22 has built in time delay in the wrong direction (without modification). It was designed for long throw horn tweeters, where the voice coil is way behind the voice coil of the woofers. So, the built in delay will delay the woofers to let the sound emanating from the tweeter voice coil to move forward to "catch up" with the woofers. With non-horn tweeters (like most modern tweeters), the woofer voice coil is behind the tweeter voice coil by several inches. In the AC-22 service manual, there is a procedure to reverse the delay from the woofer to the tweeter (or ribbon, in the case of Amazings, as the "voice coil" is the plane of the ribbon). It's about a 6 wire change.
It should sound like it isn't there!
There is a difference between hearing and listening...
Making life enjoyable through expensive electronics.
_________________
Carver: C-4000 & C-1 preamps, PSC-60 preamp/tuner, TX-11a tuner, M-400 (2), C-500, M-500, M-500t, M-500t Mk.II, A-500x, AL-III loudspeakers (2 pr.)
Sunfire:Theater Grand III processor, Ultimate Receiver, Cinema Grand Signature 400 ~ seven, True Subwoofer Mk. II, D-10 Subwoofer
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BrianT

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Pair of Silver Sevens

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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Post Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:05 pm

Re: Help with Bi-Amping Originals

BillD wrote:Brian, don't know about the Clearview. The Rane AC-22 has built in time delay in the wrong direction (without modification). It was designed for long throw horn tweeters, where the voice coil is way behind the voice coil of the woofers. So, the built in delay will delay the woofers to let the sound emanating from the tweeter voice coil to move forward to "catch up" with the woofers. With non-horn tweeters (like most modern tweeters), the woofer voice coil is behind the tweeter voice coil by several inches. In the AC-22 service manual, there is a procedure to reverse the delay from the woofer to the tweeter (or ribbon, in the case of Amazings, as the "voice coil" is the plane of the ribbon). It's about a 6 wire change.


Bill.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Brian
VPI Classic Turntable (blk)
Transfiguration Phoenix Cartridge
Sunfire Vacuum Tube Control Centre. C/W Mod'ed Phono Stage
Carver Silver 7's Tube Amps
Raysonic CD-168 CDP (silver)
Carver TX11.
B&W 802D's Rosenut
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