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Al-III+ Newbie looking for tips, suggestions

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groundzero

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Post Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:03 pm

Al-III+ Newbie looking for tips, suggestions

Having owned and loved my Carver AV-705x, I was sad to move it to a closet as I went from separates to a new receiver. I remember these AL-III's when I used to work at Circuit City and always coveted a pair. Few sales guys really understood what they were and I'm not surprised to see that Circuit City faltered.

Finally bit the bullet on a pair, over a decade later, and was looking for some tips/suggestions.

I read a posting on a guy who upgraded the internal wire and swapped to an Infinity Reference Woofer (his website with photos I think is long gone and no longer on the net)...I've read debates about bi-wiring vs bi-amping vs bypassing the internal crossover altogether. I currently bi-amp a pair of modified Infinity CS-3009's, the Circuit City variant of their Kappa's, with a Citation 7.1. I had experimented with bridging the amp and bi-wiring, but using the 4 channels in a bi-amp config worked best for me. I suspect I shouldn't bridge the Citation 7.1 or 5.1 to feed the AL-III's, as that may push the limits, but I may experiment a bit with the 5.1 bridged and not bi-wiring, let the crossover work.

What's the current line of thinking as far as upgrades / modifications...from the simple to the complex? I suspect the 705x, even dedicating 2 channels to each individual speaker doesn't have enough guts to drive these. Anyone ever paired a Citation 5.1 or 7.1 amp? I believe Bob did a little EQ adjusting with the crossover and I while I have no fear of refoaming a woofer surround, I could see the value of potentially refitting a Kappa 10.1 or upgrading the internal wires to something beefier. It looks like the newer Infinity subs aren't as efficient and have different enough specs not to work (1050's on up). Or has someone had success?

But, perhaps the science of the AL-III's are beyond me...they look and sound like magic...and maybe it's not a good idea to go under the hood too much.

I know, high current (lots of amps and watts) to feed these guys. Just curious to hear what others have hooked up to their AL's....what if any modifications are kind of the norm...or if I should just enjoy them as is. The guy I bought them from had them hooked up to Pioneer receiver...so, I'm pretty sure I don't want to replicate what he did.
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thuffman03

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Post Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:14 pm

Re: Al-III+ Newbie looking for tips, suggestions

Welcome to the forum.

The ALIII's are a great speaker. Mine were upgraded by beemers417 and TNRabbit did his own. Not exactly sure other than swapping out the woofers, replacing some internal wireing and a few parts on the cross over. They could tell you exactly what you should do.

In fact beemers417 has a plan to seal the enclosure on mine.

For power I can help you out. The more power the better. I currently have a Sunfire 300~2 which will put 600 wpc into a 4 ohm load. I just bought a second one so one will be on the ribbons and one will be on my woofers. TNRabbit has a Sunfire 400x5 I think and is running 800 watts to the ribbons and woofers.

I hope this helps and I am sure TNRabbit or beemers417 will chime in on the upgrades.
Some cool Carver stuff!
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TNRabbit

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Post Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:16 pm

Re: Al-III+ Newbie looking for tips, suggestions

Hello and WELCOME~

You are referring to the infamous "Jimmy Neutron" about the Infinity Reference woofers. He is an infrequent member on the site here, but he had his site up not too long ago....I wasn't able to Google it anymore, though.

You're FIRST best bet off the bat is to bi-amp with a pair of beefy amps. I recommend Sunfire if you can swing the $$$. Some like to put a solid state amp on the woofers & a tube amp on the ribbons (this can be a MAGICAL combo).

I personally (and at least one other member has the same setup) bi-amp my AL-IIIs with 4 channels of a Sunfire Signature 400x7 amp. I also changed out an OLDER pair of Infinity KAPPA series Perfect 10.1 10" woofers (more efficient & go lower than the newer "VQ" models) in place of the original woofers on my AL-IIIs. I like this setup. I'd like to eventually remove the passive crossovers & add a couple of active crossovers (Clearview supposedly made them for the AL-IIIs but no one has ever seen one) with the same setup, changing the crossover frequency from 150 hz to 200 hz.
TNRabbit
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From FrankieD's lips to your ears: Sunfire - a quiet box of endless power.

Sunfire TG-IV/400~7 Amp
Carver SD/A-360 CDP
Benchmark DAC-1
Sony SACD/DVD-A
Active bi-amp: Ashly XR-1001 & 2 Rane PEQ-15s
Main: HotRodded AL-IIIs
Sub: Klipsch RT-12d
Center: Sunfire CRS-3c
Surround: Sunfire CRS-3 (x 2)

OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

RIP WIlliam B. Dibble, 1948-2012. I'll miss you my friend.
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BillD

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Post Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:48 pm

Re: Al-III+ Newbie looking for tips, suggestions

You know, Gary, I've been thinking about just hooking the woofers directly to the bottom pair of binding posts (i.e., eliminate the crossover to the bottom end). Then, you can dial in the crossover frequency you desire (as long as it's above the the internal crossover on the ribbons) and not worry about the active EQ part — i.e., the Clearview or some other parametric solution) by using the internal passive crossover on the ribbons. So, you get most of the benefit of active biamping without the hassle of equalization.
It should sound like it isn't there!
There is a difference between hearing and listening...
Making life enjoyable through expensive electronics.
_________________
Carver: C-4000 & C-1 preamps, PSC-60 preamp/tuner, TX-11a tuner, M-400 (2), C-500, M-500, M-500t, M-500t Mk.II, A-500x, AL-III loudspeakers (2 pr.)
Sunfire:Theater Grand III processor, Ultimate Receiver, Cinema Grand Signature 400 ~ seven, True Subwoofer Mk. II, D-10 Subwoofer
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TNRabbit

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Post Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:30 pm

Re: Al-III+ Newbie looking for tips, suggestions

I might just try that, Bill. I'm crossing over within the TG-IV bass management....I don't recall what the upper range is for it, though. I think it's only 160 hz.
TNRabbit
Image

From FrankieD's lips to your ears: Sunfire - a quiet box of endless power.

Sunfire TG-IV/400~7 Amp
Carver SD/A-360 CDP
Benchmark DAC-1
Sony SACD/DVD-A
Active bi-amp: Ashly XR-1001 & 2 Rane PEQ-15s
Main: HotRodded AL-IIIs
Sub: Klipsch RT-12d
Center: Sunfire CRS-3c
Surround: Sunfire CRS-3 (x 2)

OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

RIP WIlliam B. Dibble, 1948-2012. I'll miss you my friend.
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BillD

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(pair of) SILVER-7 TUBE AMPs

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Location: The west's most mid-western town, Scottsdale, Arizona

Post Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:49 pm

Re: Al-III+ Newbie looking for tips, suggestions

You need to drop a Benjamin and get an active crossover to get some stereo bass!
It should sound like it isn't there!
There is a difference between hearing and listening...
Making life enjoyable through expensive electronics.
_________________
Carver: C-4000 & C-1 preamps, PSC-60 preamp/tuner, TX-11a tuner, M-400 (2), C-500, M-500, M-500t, M-500t Mk.II, A-500x, AL-III loudspeakers (2 pr.)
Sunfire:Theater Grand III processor, Ultimate Receiver, Cinema Grand Signature 400 ~ seven, True Subwoofer Mk. II, D-10 Subwoofer
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engtaz

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Post Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:39 am

Re: Al-III+ Newbie looking for tips, suggestions

Welcome and the AL III are a very good speaker.
engtaz


Carver M4.0T in front channels to Caver AL VI's in SACD & 2 Channel setup
C 16, PT 2400, Slim Device, Carver TX-8, 490T and Rega TT w Grado Gold cart in the 2 channel setup
Bogen SRB20 is computer amp
Carver PM-350 donated for youth church use
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groundzero

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Post Sun Dec 06, 2009 2:32 pm

Re: Al-III+ Newbie looking for tips, suggestions

I was looking at the Sunfire 300x2. It appears to have some crazy connection options. LAB vs. NORMAL inputs....as well as Voltage Source and Current Source speaker terminals.

With the ALIII, what combination have you found to prefer?

I was thinking of biwiring, Voltage Source to Woofers....Current Source for the Ribbon? Or am I making a mistake?

What about the LAB vs NORMAL inputs?
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BillD

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(pair of) SILVER-7 TUBE AMPs

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Post Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:04 pm

Re: Al-III+ Newbie looking for tips, suggestions

Your choice for woofers and ribbons is good. Lab Direct has no DC offset protection. That amp can amplify DC using those inputs and WILL burn up your speakers if the source feeding the amplifier has a DC offset. Unknowing users did that, and that is why they are no longer available (too bad, in that takes components out of the loop).
It should sound like it isn't there!
There is a difference between hearing and listening...
Making life enjoyable through expensive electronics.
_________________
Carver: C-4000 & C-1 preamps, PSC-60 preamp/tuner, TX-11a tuner, M-400 (2), C-500, M-500, M-500t, M-500t Mk.II, A-500x, AL-III loudspeakers (2 pr.)
Sunfire:Theater Grand III processor, Ultimate Receiver, Cinema Grand Signature 400 ~ seven, True Subwoofer Mk. II, D-10 Subwoofer
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groundzero

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Post Sat Feb 27, 2010 11:55 pm

Re: Al-III+ Newbie looking for tips, suggestions

I've been really enjoying the combination of the Sunfire amp and the AL-III's....thanks for the suggestion to go this direction. But I'm beginning to detect a little "farting"...in my right channel....I'm guessing the surround on the original woofers has eroded, creating the wobble.

Anyone replace the surround on these? I've done the surround on IMG cones...never paper...so, I'm guessing it's a wee bit trickier. Other option, and one I'll probably end up doing, is picking up an old pair of Kappa perfect 10.1's, refoam those and stick them in...

Anyone have any thoughts on to the best method? I know the newer Infinity 10" woofers are not the way to go, not as efficient, different specs....anyone have experience with any specific model numbers of replacement woofers?

Or do I try to find a legacy woofer that's been renewed? Is it Qa?
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TNRabbit

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Post Sun Feb 28, 2010 12:41 am

Re: Al-III+ Newbie looking for tips, suggestions

I used the older Infinity Kappa Perfect 10.1 (NOT the newer VQ model); if you can find the dual voice coil model (rare), that is the preferred model as it has a higher power handling capacity. However, the single voice coil model works fine. I prefer them over the stock woofer.
TNRabbit
Image

From FrankieD's lips to your ears: Sunfire - a quiet box of endless power.

Sunfire TG-IV/400~7 Amp
Carver SD/A-360 CDP
Benchmark DAC-1
Sony SACD/DVD-A
Active bi-amp: Ashly XR-1001 & 2 Rane PEQ-15s
Main: HotRodded AL-IIIs
Sub: Klipsch RT-12d
Center: Sunfire CRS-3c
Surround: Sunfire CRS-3 (x 2)

OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

RIP WIlliam B. Dibble, 1948-2012. I'll miss you my friend.
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stevewithrow

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Location: Great NorthWest.....Carver Country..

Post Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:05 pm

Re: Al-III+ Newbie looking for tips, suggestions

TNRabbit wrote:I used the older Infinity Kappa Perfect 10.1 (NOT the newer VQ model); if you can find the dual voice coil model (rare), that is the preferred model as it has a higher power handling capacity. However, the single voice coil model works fine. I prefer them over the stock woofer.

I didnt want to bump rabbits quot....I also had farting noise coming from one of my AL-III,s....What I found was not a blown woofer , but air coming out of the bolts on the bottom....I found that just a little air coming from the box other then the port in front will omit a farting sound if you will.... 8)
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TNRabbit

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(pair of) SILVER-7 TUBE AMPs

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Location: TN Native Languishing in VA

Post Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:27 pm

Re: Al-III+ Newbie looking for tips, suggestions

That's right; I didn't think about that, Steve. I put a thin strip of insulation around the holes to seal my woofers as they were doing the same thing.
TNRabbit
Image

From FrankieD's lips to your ears: Sunfire - a quiet box of endless power.

Sunfire TG-IV/400~7 Amp
Carver SD/A-360 CDP
Benchmark DAC-1
Sony SACD/DVD-A
Active bi-amp: Ashly XR-1001 & 2 Rane PEQ-15s
Main: HotRodded AL-IIIs
Sub: Klipsch RT-12d
Center: Sunfire CRS-3c
Surround: Sunfire CRS-3 (x 2)

OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

RIP WIlliam B. Dibble, 1948-2012. I'll miss you my friend.
<<

groundzero

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Posts: 5

Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:54 pm

Post Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:59 pm

Re: Al-III+ Newbie looking for tips, suggestions

Interesting...thin strip of insulation? I'm guessing you don't mean fiberglass insulation...you mean something like a rubber seal, or small foam strip? I haven't really looked underneath at the speaker cabinets...maybe some caulking and dynamat are in order when I'm in there, to try to seal up the boxes.

My thinking is, while I've got these babies laid down to work on them, I might as well reseal the boxes, throw in some batting or something and either refoam or replace the woofers. I could also change wires, etc. But, I'm always a little hesitant as I suck at anything involving solder.

Hard to find a pair of Kappa Perfect 10.1's...I'll have to stay perusing on ebay, etc. These were initially car subs, it looks like, so I'm hoping I can find a pair of "lightly used" or piece a pair together.

Otherwise, anyone ever used the Kappa Reference 1050's? 1060's? These have dual voice coil, but I worry that their specs deviate too much from the Kappa Perfect 10.1's.
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TNRabbit

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(pair of) SILVER-7 TUBE AMPs

Posts: 13258

Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:53 am

Location: TN Native Languishing in VA

Post Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:20 pm

Re: Al-III+ Newbie looking for tips, suggestions

groundzero wrote:Interesting...thin strip of insulation? I'm guessing you don't mean fiberglass insulation...you mean something like a rubber seal, or small foam strip? I haven't really looked underneath at the speaker cabinets...maybe some caulking and dynamat are in order when I'm in there, to try to seal up the boxes.

-Yes, a small rubber seal or foam strip. A narrow, thin strip of caulk (allowed to cure completely) would also work well. Just be sure to put it as close to the inner edge as possible. The 10" speakers are NOT a snug fit in the hole, so be careful in centering them. The MDF strips out easily, so if any of them are, you can insert wood glue & toothpicks, then re-drill the holes after cured.


My thinking is, while I've got these babies laid down to work on them, I might as well reseal the boxes, throw in some batting or something and either refoam or replace the woofers. I could also change wires, etc. But, I'm always a little hesitant as I suck at anything involving solder.

-The wiring IS soldered to the speakers--be sure to lay down some aluminum foil underneath the connectors....you don't want to drop hot solder onto the cone/spider!

Hard to find a pair of Kappa Perfect 10.1's...I'll have to stay perusing on ebay, etc. These were initially car subs, it looks like, so I'm hoping I can find a pair of "lightly used" or piece a pair together.

-Yes, they are car subs but work well; They show up on ebay periodically...just be patient & set up a search to check at least once a week.

Otherwise, anyone ever used the Kappa Reference 1050's? 1060's? These have dual voice coil, but I worry that their specs deviate too much from the Kappa Perfect 10.1's.

The 1050s are substantially different in both sensitivity & low frequency response; unless you intend to bi-amp, I'd avoid them. You are looking for something with at least 92 dB sensitivity & 20-200 hz frequency response, ideally.


It wouldn't hurt to remove the crossover & woofer & seal around the corners with good quality silicone caulk. I think you'll find the insulation inside quite sufficient so I wouldn't recommend additional batting. You can lay the speakers face-down or on their side on carpet & use a LARGE Philips screwdriver to remove the four bottom bolts. There are 4 plastic spacers over the bolts to hold the speaker off the base @ 2". The rear ones are set into an indentation to angle the speaker ever-so-slightly back. Put those back in & snug down first when you reassemble. BE SURE you support the woofer at the edge once you get down to the last 2 screws (I recommend opposite sides) or it may fall out when you get to the last one! The connecting wires are a little short to work with comfortably, so it helps to have an extra pair of hands to hold the woofer while you're soldering, etc. Good luck! PM me if you have any questions~
TNRabbit
Image

From FrankieD's lips to your ears: Sunfire - a quiet box of endless power.

Sunfire TG-IV/400~7 Amp
Carver SD/A-360 CDP
Benchmark DAC-1
Sony SACD/DVD-A
Active bi-amp: Ashly XR-1001 & 2 Rane PEQ-15s
Main: HotRodded AL-IIIs
Sub: Klipsch RT-12d
Center: Sunfire CRS-3c
Surround: Sunfire CRS-3 (x 2)

OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

RIP WIlliam B. Dibble, 1948-2012. I'll miss you my friend.
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