Carver Amazing Originals - possible crossover issue???

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Gpowered
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Carver Amazing Originals - possible crossover issue???

Post by Gpowered » Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:51 pm

Hello - I was recently blessed to be able to pick up a pair of original Amazing's in very good condition. This is my first go around with Carver equipment and vintage for that matter, so I am seeking guidence. I am grateful that this site is here! One speaker plays perfectly; but with the other the woofers play fine, but the ribbons do not play at all. Of course I knew this upon purchasing them, and just assumed I would replace the ribbons - no big deal. :-k I tested resistance, and 1 panel measured fine, while the other did not measure at all. Seeing that the ribbons looked like they had seen better days, I went ahead and had James in FL make me a new pair. I figured I'd be in good shape. So I came home last night all excited and soldered in the new panels, and to my surprise the panels still did not work! :-({|= It seems I didn't realize that I had to have the panels connected to get resistance from both. [-X Like I said I am new to this so please excuse my ignorance.

So what to do now? I have 2 brand new ribbons and 4 woofers that look great. Should I inspect and possibly swap the crossovers? How difficult is it to solder the x-over in and out and can they be swapped to work in the L or R speaker? The guy I bought these from had them sitting in a AC controlled room for 6 years with no play. Apparently he was playing that loud 6 years ago and he hurt something and then the one speaker's ribbons just stopped playing. Please help me troublshoot this issue. Thanks, Jeff

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Re: Carver Amazing Originals - possible crossover issue???

Post by Eddie » Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:09 pm

Here is the link that will help!
http://arafel.org/audio/als/index.html
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mbskeam
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Re: Carver Amazing Originals - possible crossover issue???

Post by mbskeam » Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:28 pm

post a pic of your xover.
I bet its a bad cap.
C1 would be the 1st to check. 85uf 100v. you can jumper this, just dont play it loud
then check R1 .5ohm 50w see if this open
the other parts are notch filters.
you can swap the xover to the other speaker, but it will take a bit of work.
if ya do this, write down and take pics, these will be your friend when ya do this,......
Mbskeam

SILVER 7's
Amazing Line Source
2 SVS PB16 SUBS
#1 BLACK BEAUTY's made by the man, the myth, the legend Bob Carver
CARVER: TFM-75, TFM-45(3), SD/A-490T
SUNFIRE: Tube pre
WTL Amadeus GTA+DV DRT XV-1t
2 sets of ALS'3, set of SILVERS, set of PLATS
AUDIOCONTROL: phase coupled activator
KENWOOD: BASIC M2a (2)

“Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but stupid lasts forever.”
― Aristophanes

The only thing I'll feel......will be the RECOIL
Necronomicon Ex-Mortis....... Klaatu Barada Nikkto
"We should seek the greatest value of our action"

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engtaz
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Re: Carver Amazing Originals - possible crossover issue???

Post by engtaz » Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:32 am

Welcome
engtaz


Carver M4.0T in front channels to Caver AL VI's in SACD & 2 Channel setup
C 16, PT 2400, Slim Device, Carver TX-8, 490T and Rega TT w Grado Gold cart in the 2 channel setup
Bogen SRB20 is computer amp
Carver PM-350 donated for youth church use

Gpowered
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Re: Carver Amazing Originals - possible crossover issue???

Post by Gpowered » Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:56 am

engtaz wrote:Welcome
I see you are in Tampa. I am just down in Sarasota.

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Re: Carver Amazing Originals - possible crossover issue???

Post by TNRabbit » Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:31 am

Welcome, G!
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Re: Carver Amazing Originals - possible crossover issue???

Post by Gpowered » Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:33 am

mbskeam wrote:post a pic of your xover.
I bet its a bad cap.
C1 would be the 1st to check. 85uf 100v. you can jumper this, just dont play it loud
then check R1 .5ohm 50w see if this open
the other parts are notch filters.
you can swap the xover to the other speaker, but it will take a bit of work.
if ya do this, write down and take pics, these will be your friend when ya do this,......
Thank you for all of this information! I will get to work tonight hopefully.

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Re: Carver Amazing Originals - possible crossover issue???

Post by BillD » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:35 pm

Why not just play a little quiet music (classical piano) through the ribbons with no crossover attached. THat will validate a crossover (vs. a wiring) problem.
It should sound like it isn't there!
There is a difference between hearing and listening...
Making life enjoyable through expensive electronics.
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Carver: C-4000 & C-1 preamps, PSC-60 preamp/tuner, TX-11a tuner, M-400 (2), C-500, M-500, M-500t, M-500t Mk.II, A-500x, AL-III loudspeakers (2 pr.)
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mbskeam
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Re: Carver Amazing Originals - possible crossover issue???

Post by mbskeam » Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:50 pm

Why not just play a little quiet music (classical piano) through the ribbons with no crossover attached. THat will validate a crossover (vs. a wiring) problem.
thats even better... :D :D :D :D
why didn't I think of this.... :D :D :D #-o
Mbskeam

SILVER 7's
Amazing Line Source
2 SVS PB16 SUBS
#1 BLACK BEAUTY's made by the man, the myth, the legend Bob Carver
CARVER: TFM-75, TFM-45(3), SD/A-490T
SUNFIRE: Tube pre
WTL Amadeus GTA+DV DRT XV-1t
2 sets of ALS'3, set of SILVERS, set of PLATS
AUDIOCONTROL: phase coupled activator
KENWOOD: BASIC M2a (2)

“Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but stupid lasts forever.”
― Aristophanes

The only thing I'll feel......will be the RECOIL
Necronomicon Ex-Mortis....... Klaatu Barada Nikkto
"We should seek the greatest value of our action"

Gpowered
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Re: Carver Amazing Originals - possible crossover issue???

Post by Gpowered » Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:48 pm

BillD wrote:Why not just play a little quiet music (classical piano) through the ribbons with no crossover attached. THat will validate a crossover (vs. a wiring) problem.
I just finished doing this (minus the classical). I used Diana Krall instead as she was an arm reach away. :lol: The ribbons are working fine. The issue is somewhere in the crossover. I have it out of the speaker now and inspecting closely. Nothing looks burnt at all. :o Everything seems to be wired together so I am not sure what I am getting a reading from without taking it all apart which I am definitely not comfortable with yet. One thing for sure is, the woofers play fine and ribbons do not (through the crossver that is), so I am focusing on the caps and notch filters on the side of the panel lead wires (bottom right corner). Thinking of taking (or sending) it to someone that knows what they are looking at.

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Re: Carver Amazing Originals - possible crossover issue???

Post by BillD » Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:40 pm

Gpowered wrote:
BillD wrote:Why not just play a little quiet music (classical piano) through the ribbons with no crossover attached. THat will validate a crossover (vs. a wiring) problem.
I just finished doing this (minus the classical). I used Diana Krall instead as she was an arm reach away. :lol: The ribbons are working fine. The issue is somewhere in the crossover. I have it out of the speaker now and inspecting closely. Nothing looks burnt at all. :o Everything seems to be wired together so I am not sure what I am getting a reading from without taking it all apart which I am definitely not comfortable with yet. One thing for sure is, the woofers play fine and ribbons do not (through the crossver that is), so I am focusing on the caps and notch filters on the side of the panel lead wires (bottom right corner). Thinking of taking (or sending) it to someone that knows what they are looking at.
Well, I'm looking at the schematic right now, and there is a 85µF capacitor connected to a ½Ω resistor (probably two 1Ω resistors in parallel). I'd measure that ½Ω resistor to see if it is open (same with the capacitor). On the other side of that resistor are the two notch filters. Each of those has an LRC parallel circuit, which means each has an inductor in it which will pass DC with very little resistance (and the capacitors will block). From the point beyond the ½Ω resistor to the attachment to the ribbon should read around 4Ω (my calculation came out to 4.27Ω). In the schematic I'm looking at, the ribbon is connected to the crossover on the negative side (black).
It should sound like it isn't there!
There is a difference between hearing and listening...
Making life enjoyable through expensive electronics.
_________________
Carver: C-4000 & C-1 preamps, PSC-60 preamp/tuner, TX-11a tuner, M-400 (2), C-500, M-500, M-500t, M-500t Mk.II, A-500x, AL-III loudspeakers (2 pr.)
Sunfire:Theater Grand III processor, Ultimate Receiver, Cinema Grand Signature 400 ~ seven, True Subwoofer Mk. II, D-10 Subwoofer

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mbskeam
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Re: Carver Amazing Originals - possible crossover issue???

Post by mbskeam » Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:05 pm

hey Bill,
how do you get the ohm symbol from your keyboard?

Ω
Mbskeam

SILVER 7's
Amazing Line Source
2 SVS PB16 SUBS
#1 BLACK BEAUTY's made by the man, the myth, the legend Bob Carver
CARVER: TFM-75, TFM-45(3), SD/A-490T
SUNFIRE: Tube pre
WTL Amadeus GTA+DV DRT XV-1t
2 sets of ALS'3, set of SILVERS, set of PLATS
AUDIOCONTROL: phase coupled activator
KENWOOD: BASIC M2a (2)

“Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but stupid lasts forever.”
― Aristophanes

The only thing I'll feel......will be the RECOIL
Necronomicon Ex-Mortis....... Klaatu Barada Nikkto
"We should seek the greatest value of our action"

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Toy Maker
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Re: Carver Amazing Originals - possible crossover issue???

Post by Toy Maker » Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:18 pm

Gpowered wrote:
BillD wrote:Why not just play a little quiet music (classical piano) through the ribbons with no crossover attached. THat will validate a crossover (vs. a wiring) problem.
I just finished doing this (minus the classical). I used Diana Krall instead as she was an arm reach away. :lol: The ribbons are working fine. The issue is somewhere in the crossover. I have it out of the speaker now and inspecting closely. Nothing looks burnt at all. :o Everything seems to be wired together so I am not sure what I am getting a reading from without taking it all apart which I am definitely not comfortable with yet. One thing for sure is, the woofers play fine and ribbons do not (through the crossver that is), so I am focusing on the caps and notch filters on the side of the panel lead wires (bottom right corner). Thinking of taking (or sending) it to someone that knows what they are looking at.


Just bring it down and we can trouble shoot it here... If worse comes to worse, I'll swap you for our working crossovers while I replace whatever needs to be replaced. Bring them both, ill do both of them at the same time, and they'll last you another 20-30 years

James

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Re: Carver Amazing Originals - possible crossover issue???

Post by Gpowered » Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:24 pm

BillD wrote:
Gpowered wrote:
BillD wrote: Well, I'm looking at the schematic right now, and there is a 85µF capacitor connected to a ½Ω resistor (probably two 1Ω resistors in parallel). I'd measure that ½Ω resistor to see if it is open (same with the capacitor). On the other side of that resistor are the two notch filters. Each of those has an LRC parallel circuit, which means each has an inductor in it which will pass DC with very little resistance (and the capacitors will block). From the point beyond the ½Ω resistor to the attachment to the ribbon should read around 4Ω (my calculation came out to 4.27Ω). In the schematic I'm looking at, the ribbon is connected to the crossover on the negative side (black).
Bill - thank you for this information. Ok, I see the 85µF capacitor and it is indeed sitting atop dual 1Ω resistors. The yellow caps and notch filters on the right side right test out fine. I tried to get a reading from the light blue 85µF capacitor you spoke about, as well as the resistors and the two notch filters just to the right. I am not getting a reading from any of these. It seems that anything along the chain of the black wire that runs from postion 1 on the bottom right over the position 2 on the bottom left, and then back up to position 1 just above that at the top, is reading healthy. In summary, it does seem to be what you mentioned but what now? 8-[ Do I have to replace all of these or just the 85µF capacitor?

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mbskeam
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Re: Carver Amazing Originals - possible crossover issue???

Post by mbskeam » Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:02 pm

Gpowered.......

so could you do me a favor, when looking from the rear of the speaker, can you tell me what side the red wire is hooked to on your ribbons, R or L. and where does this wire go, does the red wire go to the capacitor side of the x-over, or to the shared - common point, this wire would then go back down to the neg side of the binding post....
pics..... [-o< [-o< [-o< [-o<

thanks....
Mbskeam

SILVER 7's
Amazing Line Source
2 SVS PB16 SUBS
#1 BLACK BEAUTY's made by the man, the myth, the legend Bob Carver
CARVER: TFM-75, TFM-45(3), SD/A-490T
SUNFIRE: Tube pre
WTL Amadeus GTA+DV DRT XV-1t
2 sets of ALS'3, set of SILVERS, set of PLATS
AUDIOCONTROL: phase coupled activator
KENWOOD: BASIC M2a (2)

“Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but stupid lasts forever.”
― Aristophanes

The only thing I'll feel......will be the RECOIL
Necronomicon Ex-Mortis....... Klaatu Barada Nikkto
"We should seek the greatest value of our action"

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