(( AL-VI )) designs !!! I need some opinions.

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Toy Maker
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(( AL-VI )) designs !!! I need some opinions.

Post by Toy Maker » Tue Oct 09, 2007 12:51 pm

Ok... here's what's happening...
I plan to make a new set of speakers. More for fun than anything else.
I know what subs I want to use, and I am having trouble deciding which enclosure to use. I need some opinions on what would be my best bet. Keep in mind... I like (ghetto, hooptie driving by bass) BUT... I am not really going for that this time... the dilemma I have is.. the specs on these drivers are pretty good, and they will produce the (ghetto bass) if one were so inclined. Here is what they say about the boxes...

The Solo-Baric generates more sound pressure than an equivalently-sized round speaker and excels
when used in the recommended sealed boxes. These sealed enclosure designs give the smoothest
response with increased energy at the lowest frequencies, 20 to 30Hz. These designs deliver massive
amounts of highly-accurate bass and can be driven with punishing levels of amplifier power.
The Solo-Baric high performance suspension system can operate in a larger sealed enclosure. This
maximum enclosure volume application is ideal for SQ (ultra sound quality) installations. The SQ
enclosure generates a very flat response curve and superbly extends the subbass response.
Solo-Baric woofers perform well in any size sealed enclosure between the Compact and SQ volume
recommendations. These systems will exhibit benefits of both designs: Compact produces high-impact
bass, and SQ generates low bass frequency protraction. Overall, the system will sound more like the
recommended enclosure design it is closest to in enclosure volume. These enclosure recommendations
have been calculated with the airspace inside the enclosure and include the displacement of the woofer.
All sealed-enclosure airspace should be filled to 50% loose poly-fil (polyester fiberfill) stuffing. Do not
make the airspace greater than the SQ, maximum enclosure volume, recommendation.

The question is... Do I go closer to the "Compact" or "SQ" enclosure ??
Do you want more Punch, or Smoother... or go 1/2 way in between?

Some advice please !!!!

here is my preliminary design... It's probably still going to change, but I am liking the shape so far.

Image
Last edited by Toy Maker on Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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skip
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Post by skip » Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:27 pm

Those look great Toy Maker. Personally I like the SQ balanced smooth bass curve, but they are your speakers, so you should go with what you want to hear. If you are planning on selling them though, I wouldn't go with the compact enclosure. Are you gonna go with the same color scheme as the ALV's? Those are beautiful.

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Post by TNRabbit » Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:31 pm

Go for SQ; you won't be sorry. I don't think you're going to have a problem with "impact"!!

I like the design, but something is missing. Let me think about it for a while....

Also, one of the known problems with the design of the original flat panel ALS' was that he bass was better with the speakers toed OUT but the imaging was better with the ribbons toed in. For that reason, I'd suggest downward firing woofers.

TNRabbit
Image

From FrankieD's lips to your ears: Sunfire - a quiet box of endless power.

Sunfire TG-IV/400~7 Amp
Carver SD/A-360 CDP
Benchmark DAC-1
Sony SACD/DVD-A
Active bi-amp: Ashly XR-1001 & 2 Rane PEQ-15s
Main: HotRodded AL-IIIs
Sub: Klipsch RT-12d
Center: Sunfire CRS-3c
Surround: Sunfire CRS-3 (x 2)

OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

RIP WIlliam B. Dibble, 1948-2012. I'll miss you my friend.

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Post by Toy Maker » Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:02 pm

I was leaning more towards the SQ my self.. just wanted to hear others opinions. I thought some would say it's going to sound too "boomy"
but I like the smoother slope idea as well.

As for colors... I really haven't thought that far ahead yet. @ CF, we were joking around with Ferrari Red, or Lamborghini Yellow... that with a carbon fiber looking grill cloth... Sweet !!!!

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Post by elgrau » Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:19 pm

You could skip the "messiness" of a sub all together and build the EPI 1000's. Plans for the original design enclosures are on http://www.humanspeakers.com and he (Huw) will sell you all of the drivers (8 8" lows and 8 1" inverted dome air spring tweeters) and crossover/wiring harnesses. These speakers radiate 360 deg and therefore you no longer have to be concerned about "sweet spots" for listening. I have the smaller sized 400's that also radiate 360 deg and I never plan on giving them up, but I've always wanted to build those 7' high 1000's! The inverted dome tweeters are the only driver that puts out a perfect high frequency wave form and I can testify that you'll never hear clearer more well defined high frequency reproduction of all instruments (not just horns as in Klips)...
Ed
FR: 400 disk changer with PS Audio Digital Link III DAC; Technics SL-1100A TT. QED Quenx1 IC's from DAC & TT to Adcom GTP-602 preamp/Tuner. AudioQuest King Cobra IC's from preamp to M1.0t mk-II opt2. QED Silver Spirals 4M wires to EPI 1000’s.
LR: AudioEngine wireless link from family room preamp to Barcus-Berry 2002R Sonic Maximizer to GlowPower Zyxt IC's to Sunfire 300x2 to Nordost 6M bi-source wires to AOS 28" MDF spherical speakers using six 6.5" woofers and eight 1" dome tweeters symm. arranged around the surface.
SS system: CX-995V DVD to AV-634x 3-4 channel amp (center/rears) & M1.0t mk-II opt2(fronts).
Garage: 300 disk changer to Entech 202.5 DAC to MXR150 Receiver (pre) to TFM-42 to EPI 400 speakers.

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Post by TNRabbit » Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:33 pm

James,

I had some more questions about the heavier kaptons you built for you ALVs; did the design change the frequency response & the "notch" in the physical build of the ribbon? How did you overcome the notch effect? What crossover frequency did you use between woofer/ribbon? Are you using the same kapton for these new speakers?
TNRabbit
Image

From FrankieD's lips to your ears: Sunfire - a quiet box of endless power.

Sunfire TG-IV/400~7 Amp
Carver SD/A-360 CDP
Benchmark DAC-1
Sony SACD/DVD-A
Active bi-amp: Ashly XR-1001 & 2 Rane PEQ-15s
Main: HotRodded AL-IIIs
Sub: Klipsch RT-12d
Center: Sunfire CRS-3c
Surround: Sunfire CRS-3 (x 2)

OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

RIP WIlliam B. Dibble, 1948-2012. I'll miss you my friend.

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Post by Toy Maker » Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:54 pm

TNRabbit wrote:James,

I had some more questions about the heavier kaptons you built for you ALVs; did the design change the frequency response & the "notch" in the physical build of the ribbon? How did you overcome the notch effect? What crossover frequency did you use between woofer/ribbon? Are you using the same kapton for these new speakers?
Hate to say it, but I have no idea what the answers are to your questions. I don't know anyone that can test the new ribbons.
My goal was to make them bullet-proof, and that I did...
I'm sure the frequency response and notch had to change, but to what, who knows... they need to be tested in a lab.
The crossover is active, the only way I'll build a set of speakers. (passives suck) X-over point is about 150'ish

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Post by audioassassin77 » Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:57 pm

nice design. almost logan-esque.
i love the driving, high impact, heavy spl bass myself. however im with the Rabbit on this one, go sq for the ribbons benifit.
ferrari yellow with cf look grill cloth, hmmmm.
fiberglass enclosure comes to mind? =P~
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Post by Toy Maker » Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:15 pm

audioassassin77 wrote: fiberglass enclosure comes to mind? =P~
That's doable.. I have a buddy that does CF and FG work... make the back out of wood, and sheet it with CF. that'd look kick ass.. but probably cost an extra $grand or so...

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Post by F1nut » Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:13 pm

SQ, the only way to listen.
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Post by TNRabbit » Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:16 pm

I got it now:

Maybe something a little less angular on the bottom/woofer part...more rounded. Also, I'd go wider with the part on each side of the ribbons. I read somewhere that is desireable from the aspect of blocking some of the back reflections of the ribbon.

Also, by making it wider, you open up for more cubic feet of space for the woofer portion...

Just my $.02/opinion. O:)
TNRabbit
Image

From FrankieD's lips to your ears: Sunfire - a quiet box of endless power.

Sunfire TG-IV/400~7 Amp
Carver SD/A-360 CDP
Benchmark DAC-1
Sony SACD/DVD-A
Active bi-amp: Ashly XR-1001 & 2 Rane PEQ-15s
Main: HotRodded AL-IIIs
Sub: Klipsch RT-12d
Center: Sunfire CRS-3c
Surround: Sunfire CRS-3 (x 2)

OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

RIP WIlliam B. Dibble, 1948-2012. I'll miss you my friend.

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Post by Toy Maker » Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:40 am

audioassassin77 wrote:nice design. almost logan-esque.
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.... then once you said it, that made me go back to the drawing board. Not looking to make a ML rehash at all... so here's what I came up with this time. I still see a few small changes I want to make, but I like this one allot.

Not sure if you guys know, but I teach an AutoCAD class at our loclal Vocational school Mon, Tues, Wed nights. All this week and next week the class is drawing a set of blueprints for a small house, very easy, but takes them a long time, and I think I only had 3 quick questions tonight to answer, so for 3 hours a night I get to this, and I'm getting paid for it \:D/

2" thick solid Maple legs, and ribbon supports. Satin black 13.5" cube sub box. 10" Kicker L-7 Solo-Baric sub driver (SQ) box. Ribbon panels ANY color I feel like, or natural wood (mahogany would look nice)... still thinking about doing a grill... or not...
Found the below (carbon looking) cloth (maybe)

Image

Image

Image

carbon cloth

Image

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Post by Magnaryder » Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:20 am

TNRabbit wrote
Also, one of the known problems with the design of the original flat panel ALS' was that he bass was better with the speakers toed OUT but the imaging was better with the ribbons toed in. For that reason, I'd suggest downward firing woofers.
What Rabbit is refering to is limiting the bass Q of the Carver Amazing trapazoidal panel. One of the effects of the di-pole panel is a bass re-inforcement when the panel is turned into the listening area. Some have suggested the speaker really needed to be built of 2 panels, one for the ribbon module and one for the bass array, that way the imaging/soundfield can be preserved by orienting the ribbon into the listening area and facing the bass panel outward. I find the bass response quite pleasing, never overbearing or heavy. Some reveiwers of the day found the bass response to be both bloated and slow...they needed to upgrade their power source, I haven't had any such problems. In fact I had a Carver Sub Bass Room damper I never used...no need.

I want a detailed and articulate bass, with a response curve as flat as my desk top. I don't think woofer orientation is as important as preserving the bass quality. I want fast, tight bass sans the bloat.

I'm infor a set, if they sound better than what I have now. How much Kemosabi?

ray
Magnaryder

Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.

"Racing is life, the rest of the time you're just sitting around."-Steve McQueen

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Post by TNRabbit » Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:42 am

Is that 13.5" cube sufficient size for SQ for that woofer? Looks too small...
TNRabbit
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From FrankieD's lips to your ears: Sunfire - a quiet box of endless power.

Sunfire TG-IV/400~7 Amp
Carver SD/A-360 CDP
Benchmark DAC-1
Sony SACD/DVD-A
Active bi-amp: Ashly XR-1001 & 2 Rane PEQ-15s
Main: HotRodded AL-IIIs
Sub: Klipsch RT-12d
Center: Sunfire CRS-3c
Surround: Sunfire CRS-3 (x 2)

OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

RIP WIlliam B. Dibble, 1948-2012. I'll miss you my friend.

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Post by Magnaryder » Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:45 am

TNRabbit wrote
Is that 13.5" cube sufficient size for SQ for that woofer? Looks too small...
Isn't the Sunfire sub in an 11" cube? They're pretty accurate I've heard 8)

ray
Magnaryder

Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.

"Racing is life, the rest of the time you're just sitting around."-Steve McQueen

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