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Help! New Member Has ALS Ribbon Problem!

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Robert R

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Post Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:25 am

Re: Help! New Member Has ALS Ribbon Problem!

All of the Amazing crossovers seem to have been "evolving designs". Personally, I want to scrap mine altogether at some point and do the job electronically; it's more efficient and reliable, except you need twice as many power amps. I'd love some help with the engineering, but haven't found it yet; might have to go to the trouble of doing it all myself.

As I suggested before, people that sell expensive capacitors will tell you no end of stories about how good they "sound". Ask to see their hard evidence, and be ready for subjective opinion and eerie theory in reply. My very ordinary ones sound great to me. But spending a huge amount on caps is what you want to do, I've no doubt they will sound wonderful to you.

Meanwhile, if you listen to your amazing Amazing speakers with ears that are concentrating on the music, not looking for alleged shortcomings, you might be surprisingly delighted.

Robert R
"You know what folks? I'm happy."
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Reese

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Post Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:59 am

Re: Help! New Member Has ALS Ribbon Problem!

mariodawg wrote:Robert R and other Crossover Wizards,
However, he needs a wiring diagram of my crossover first to get the ball rolling. The problem is, I have one of those upgrade crossovers, not listed in the service manual. I just spent some more time quickly perusing the forum, but i haven't seen a pic of a crossover that looks like mine. I'm afraid that my upgrade crossover may have been a evolving design anyway.

Anyone have a wiring diagram of an ALS Platinum Upgrade crossover utilizing the 60" ribbons but the original 4 x 4ohm silver honeycombed woofers?


Thanks Again!
Mariodawg



Mariodawg, I have the ALS Platinum Upgrade installed in my Originals -- with the 60" ribbons, the upgraded/different crossovers, and the original honeycomb woofers -- I just looked again at the paperwork/installation instructions that Carver Corp sent along at the time, and there's no wiring diagram for the crossover. There are only drawn diagrams showing the positive and negative fins off the crossover and how to wire them up to other positive and negative leads; a diagram on how to wire up the woofers -/+, and a diagram of where to rout out a small piece of the frame to allow the new ribbon connectors to fit.

I sent a photocopy of all that to maddmaxx for the record, maybe a year ago -- if you need any of that, you could ask him to send you a copy, I think.

Reese
Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought -- JFK

Sunfire Classic Tube Preamp; 2 Carver Silver 7ts, 2 Silver 9ts; bi-amped ALS (Originals upgraded to Platinum), Rane PE15's eq's and Rane AC22 xcrossover; Carver c-19 tube pre;
Carver 390t CD carousel; Carver 490t CD player; BBE 362 Sonic Maximizer; C-9 SH; Sony ES tuner and DAT deck; Sony CD copier/burner; Sony dual cassette deck; TEAC 2340R 4 ch r to r tape deck; Dual CS5000 tt, Shure V15 Type V-MR cartridge
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Robert R

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Post Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:00 am

Re: Help! New Member Has ALS Ribbon Problem!

I suspect that your crossover is the same on the ribbon side as the one in the Service Manual for the Platinum Edition. The difference would likely be the woofer side, since your woofers are the earlier type, and originally were actually toned down a bit so they wouldn't overpower the less efficient early type ribbons. On upgrading they would probably have been "unleashed" about 6dB. That would involve a coil (L1) and a capacitor (C1). In the Plats, L1 is shown as 8.5mH, part number 616-00074-00, and C1 is shown as 450 uf at 150 volts, another big NP type. See if you can find these two parts, and get the numbers off them; they probably are different. Or post us some good pictures of your crossover. Then we can probably draw a schematic for the whole thing.

RobertR
"You know what folks? I'm happy."
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BillD

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(pair of) SILVER-7 TUBE AMPs

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Post Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:51 am

Re: Help! New Member Has ALS Ribbon Problem!

I was surprised that, with my AL-IIIs, I had to tone down the single 10" woofer not to be louder than the ribbon at the crossover point (150Hz). Then, there was the subwoofer....
It should sound like it isn't there!
There is a difference between hearing and listening...
Making life enjoyable through expensive electronics.
_________________
Carver: C-4000 & C-1 preamps, PSC-60 preamp/tuner, TX-11a tuner, M-400 (2), C-500, M-500, M-500t, M-500t Mk.II, A-500x, AL-III loudspeakers (2 pr.)
Sunfire:Theater Grand III processor, Ultimate Receiver, Cinema Grand Signature 400 ~ seven, True Subwoofer Mk. II, D-10 Subwoofer
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Robert R

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Post Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:56 pm

Re: Help! New Member Has ALS Ribbon Problem!

Hey, BillD,

I need some help with Silver crossovers, and you seem to know some of this sort of thing. I'm about to go get some custom electronic ones made up, (have to bi-amp, of course) but not sure what frequency to center the crossovers at, or what the slope of the original was, for that matter. But since this will be fourth order, I guess mine will be 24dB/octave. Thought I'd try 100 Hz, and then it can be easily converted to 125 or 150 or whatever I wish to try, with just a few resistor changes, so I'm told. Does 100 sound about right?

The other tricky part is the notch filter needed at - what? Not sure in the Silvers if it's 7k, or where, and no idea of the needed amplitude or slope. They can design the filter right into the crossover if I provide the specs.

Same deal with the Gundry dip, though I could skip that, at least for now. It's around 3.3k, if I remember right. There's always the HCS-U.

Then, how to wire the three woofers directly to a power amp? I don't know their impedance, but on an ohmeter they read less than one ohm! That's DC, obviously, but it makes me awfully leery about keeping them in parallel. I plan to try them in series, and definitely in phase with the ribbon, as any fourth order hookup should be.

Anyway, if you know any of this stuff, or know of someone that does, or some literature I could consult, it sure would be a help. It's a little scary to tear into something that is essentially working OK and make major changes when you don't know as much as you should.

Robert R
"You know what folks? I'm happy."
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BillD

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(pair of) SILVER-7 TUBE AMPs

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Post Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:08 pm

Re: Help! New Member Has ALS Ribbon Problem!

Robert R, I don't have Silvers, I have AL-IIIs, and they are crossed at 150Hz. I'd say that is a good starting point because the Silvers have the same 48" ribbon. You might go lower, because you have those three big woofers, whereas I only have 1 10 incher. Anyone with the exact Silver specs?

Because I left my passives in (but separated) I didn't worry about any ribbon anomalies. I do recall seeing here on the forum a frequency response chart of the ribbons, but I do not recall whether it was for which (30, 48 or 60 inch) ribbon.

There was a guy (not a forum member) that made a perfect active crossover for one of the Amazings. Maybe some of the more senior fellows on the forum can chime in here and help you. As for me, I just told you all I know.

Wait, I just remembered it Look HERE
It should sound like it isn't there!
There is a difference between hearing and listening...
Making life enjoyable through expensive electronics.
_________________
Carver: C-4000 & C-1 preamps, PSC-60 preamp/tuner, TX-11a tuner, M-400 (2), C-500, M-500, M-500t, M-500t Mk.II, A-500x, AL-III loudspeakers (2 pr.)
Sunfire:Theater Grand III processor, Ultimate Receiver, Cinema Grand Signature 400 ~ seven, True Subwoofer Mk. II, D-10 Subwoofer
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BillD

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(pair of) SILVER-7 TUBE AMPs

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Post Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Help! New Member Has ALS Ribbon Problem!

HERE is some more interesting information.
It should sound like it isn't there!
There is a difference between hearing and listening...
Making life enjoyable through expensive electronics.
_________________
Carver: C-4000 & C-1 preamps, PSC-60 preamp/tuner, TX-11a tuner, M-400 (2), C-500, M-500, M-500t, M-500t Mk.II, A-500x, AL-III loudspeakers (2 pr.)
Sunfire:Theater Grand III processor, Ultimate Receiver, Cinema Grand Signature 400 ~ seven, True Subwoofer Mk. II, D-10 Subwoofer
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maddmaxxx

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Post Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:16 pm

Re: Help! New Member Has ALS Ribbon Problem!

-mr robertr; i wrote the x-over point down somewheres...ill try to dig it up [100 to 200]...think i grabbed the figure off of clearviews or rudi xxxx site

-als silvers; from the manual...

-crossover; 'ribbon operates from 25hz to 40,000 hz; subwoofer system augments ribbon below 100hz'


-as far as the gundry control; it does work especially when spks are 3' min away from the backwall

-i just wasnt used to it, i quess



-go slo
-* © Küül ®™ /mx...
-Too hip gotta book
-"Don't BAN me Bro!"...el/doro
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mariodawg

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Location: Choctaw, OK

Post Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:34 pm

Re: Help! New Member Has ALS Ribbon Problem!

Here are pics of my Original ALS "Platinum Upgrade" crossover.
Attachments
ALS Crossover 013.jpg
ALS Crossover 013.jpg (1.6 MiB) Viewed 613 times
ALS Crossover 005.jpg
ALS Crossover 005.jpg (1.68 MiB) Viewed 615 times
ALS Crossover 002.jpg
ALS Crossover 002.jpg (1.51 MiB) Viewed 602 times
ALS Crossover 011.jpg
ALS Crossover 011.jpg (1.5 MiB) Viewed 601 times
ALS Crossover 001.jpg
ALS Crossover 001.jpg (1.7 MiB) Viewed 589 times
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BillD

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(pair of) SILVER-7 TUBE AMPs

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Post Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:41 pm

Re: Help! New Member Has ALS Ribbon Problem!

Interesting that that elusive 10.0 J 100V capacitor is in the last photo at the right bottom underneath that 7 ohm 10% 7W resistor.
It should sound like it isn't there!
There is a difference between hearing and listening...
Making life enjoyable through expensive electronics.
_________________
Carver: C-4000 & C-1 preamps, PSC-60 preamp/tuner, TX-11a tuner, M-400 (2), C-500, M-500, M-500t, M-500t Mk.II, A-500x, AL-III loudspeakers (2 pr.)
Sunfire:Theater Grand III processor, Ultimate Receiver, Cinema Grand Signature 400 ~ seven, True Subwoofer Mk. II, D-10 Subwoofer
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maddmaxxx

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(Pair of Silver 9t's)

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Post Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:09 pm

Re: Help! New Member Has ALS Ribbon Problem!

-thanks, mr marion...if you can keep those pics awhile...hopefully mr obi56 can add them to the database gallery





-to edit my last post...1mos time was not nearly enuff for the ecsu that was a 'on loan'...concerning the gundry effect

-nobody i know iz familiar w/ 'it' [gundry effect]...needed more time to criticize/ evaluate

-im quite spoiled w/ the c16's SH [my opinion the very best of Carvers]...vs the ecsu's SH
-* © Küül ®™ /mx...
-Too hip gotta book
-"Don't BAN me Bro!"...el/doro
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Robert R

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Post Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:52 pm

Re: Help! New Member Has ALS Ribbon Problem!

Yeah, Bill – that’s C4 and R3, in parallel with L4, the final the notch filter.

What I find even more interesting is that they put a second 100 watt resistor array in there, and they stuck it right on top of coil L3, so I can’t see the part number. It should be 616-00076-00 if it’s the same as the schematic. But that big 4-part resistor – I can’t see what’s hooked to it, either. The one end appears to be grounded, the other end is too hard to see. It might be in the woofer circuit, to pad down the woofers, after all. Remember, for them ground is going to be +. There are two separate four-in-parallel sets of 25 watt resistors here. The one set for the ribbons is normal, but in the Plat. Schematic, all the woofer duties are done by C1 and L1; no other big resistor. I'm really not familiar with the Original woofers, except that they were different, and not just to look at. C1 here is not 450 ufd either, but a parallel combo yielding 376 ufd. L1 is the stock metal-core coil, used for Plats and Silvers both.


All in all, mariodawg, it looks like they just took some regular Platinum crossovers from stock and modded them a bit for the upgrade kits. The date stamped on the one coil is Jan 5, 1995.

Your silver colored cap that failed (C2) is rated 100 volts, but C2 in the schematic calls for 150 volts. That shouldn’t be a problem unless you have a real monster amp, and use it flat out. But since it failed, you might want to search out a 150v rating for your final version. Whatever you do to one channel, of course, you should do to the other.

Those four resistors that lie flat atop the mystery coil: if you could gently lift them up, with their silicone sealant that holds them, you should find a part number on that coil. You can later renew the bond with a little fresh silicone of your own.

Then I need a better picture, or description of where the ends of that resistor array go. If I had to guess, I’d reckon it’s a series resistor on the black lead to the woofer array. But guesswork is bad work.

Anyway, I now just about have a complete schematic, save the few things mentioned.

Going to bed now,
Robert R
"You know what folks? I'm happy."
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Robert R

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Post Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:01 pm

Re: Help! New Member Has ALS Ribbon Problem!

maxx - is the C-16 the one with the adjustable Holography? I always wondered why they weren't all that way. The C-1 had two choices, as did the C-4000, but in later versions (e.g in HR series, etc.) the SH got weaker, and the HCS-U was the weakest of all. It's just a matter of altering the gain on the correction signal, really.

I can see how you might not hear the Gundry effect unless you have the right program material and know what to listen for. Ultimately, it could be said to be a tweak to reduce "listener fatigue". The same thing is build right into the crossovers of most of the versions of the ALS's.

Rob
"You know what folks? I'm happy."
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maddmaxxx

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(Pair of Silver 9t's)

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Post Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:49 pm

Re: Help! New Member Has ALS Ribbon Problem!

Robert R wrote:maxx - is the C-16 the one with the adjustable Holography? I always wondered why they weren't all that way. The C-1 had two choices, as did the C-4000, but in later versions (e.g in HR series, etc.) the SH got weaker, and the HCS-U was the weakest of all. It's just a matter of altering the gain on the correction signal, really.

I can see how you might not hear the Gundry effect unless you have the right program material and know what to listen for. Ultimately, it could be said to be a tweak to reduce "listener fatigue". The same thing is build right into the crossovers of most of the versions of the ALS's.

Rob


-yes...i really dont know why they werent all w/ a dial either

-the rest are pretty alright except the single push button [ct type pres]...them i dont care for [not worth much]

-the ecsu was almost as good as the c9 ...i did not try them each in a test tho

-the ecsu s SH iz nice however

-just...an opinion


-oh, mr robertr; i do not feel the ecus s SH iz the weakest

-alot of folks on here like the c1 s SH [myself included]...i dare say i believe the c1 and the ecus are the same unit [or at least close]...to my ears...i dunno about their schematics


-peace
-* © Küül ®™ /mx...
-Too hip gotta book
-"Don't BAN me Bro!"...el/doro
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mariodawg

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Location: Choctaw, OK

Post Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:30 pm

Re: Help! New Member Has ALS Ribbon Problem!

Robert R,
Here are some new photos to absorb. I read your analysis thus far, and the one thing I wasn't sure about was the "pair" of 4-in-parallel 25W resistors. To me, they appear to be wired differently: one in parallel, and one in series (I think you can see it better in the new pics). Most everythig else you said was over my head anyway, but I am learning. I liked the idea about going with a higher voltage rating on the silver capacitor: I am driving these speakers with a pair of silver 7t's in a 100' x 60' barn, and I like it loud!

I will move the one set of resistors soon and give you the info on the hidden coil.

Thanks again!
Mariodawg
Attachments
ALS Crossover 019.jpg
ALS Crossover 019.jpg (1.58 MiB) Viewed 537 times
ALS Crossover 017.jpg
ALS Crossover 017.jpg (1.46 MiB) Viewed 535 times
ALS Crossover 016.jpg
ALS Crossover 016.jpg (1.46 MiB) Viewed 530 times
ALS Crossover 015.jpg
ALS Crossover 015.jpg (1.52 MiB) Viewed 527 times
ALS Crossover 014.jpg
ALS Crossover 014.jpg (1.56 MiB) Viewed 531 times
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