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It is currently Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:52 am

CLASH OF THE FLAT GIANTS

What do you say, folks?

Martin Logan
5
14%
Carver Amazing
23
64%
Apogee
2
6%
Magnepan
2
6%
QUAD
1
3%
Acoustat
0
No votes
Something else
3
8%
 
Total votes : 36
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BillD

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Post Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:47 am

Re: CLASH OF THE FLAT GIANTS

Not on Bob's watch — I think.
It should sound like it isn't there!
There is a difference between hearing and listening...
Making life enjoyable through expensive electronics.
_________________
Carver: C-4000 & C-1 preamps, PSC-60 preamp/tuner, TX-11a tuner, M-400 (2), C-500, M-500, M-500t, M-500t Mk.II, A-500x, AL-III loudspeakers (2 pr.)
Sunfire:Theater Grand III processor, Ultimate Receiver, Cinema Grand Signature 400 ~ seven, True Subwoofer Mk. II, D-10 Subwoofer
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OBI56

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Post Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:20 pm

Re: CLASH OF THE FLAT GIANTS

BillD wrote:Not on Bob's watch — I think.


The CT-26v came out after Bob was ousted from his company Bill. The design may well have been based on Bob's stuff but the execution sure wasn't.
Why let facts or common sense get in the way of your opinions.
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Rainman

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Post Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:41 pm

Re: CLASH OF THE FLAT GIANTS

OBI56 wrote:
BillD wrote:Not on Bob's watch — I think.


The CT-26v came out after Bob was ousted from his company Bill. The design may well have been based on Bob's stuff but the execution sure wasn't.




I could not agree more OBI! That's about the best description of it. I like how you said "BASED ON!" The execution part had to be quite funny to the Chinese rice eaters after they convinced the replacement owners of Carver Corp. they could build all the electronics for Carver "better & cheaper." I can almost hear them talking, "Stupid round eye!" "We trick Round Eye, they buy (shritty erektronics)! "Round Eye give money and get BoxOfShittyElectronics!"
So know we all know where B.O.S.E. originally came from! :lol:
I will add my own "style points" for that one!

Rainman
Question: Do you know why turds are tapered on the ends? Answer: So your asshole doesn't slam shut..

Carver- SDA490t, SDA450, 2 TFM45's, TFM15, CT23, CT28v, CT27v, Linn Kaber speakers, Sunfire crm2's, PS Audio Statement speaker cables and I/C's, A.P.C. power
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OBI56

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Post Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:14 pm

Re: CLASH OF THE FLAT GIANTS

Rainman wrote:
OBI56 wrote:
BillD wrote:Not on Bob's watch — I think.


The CT-26v came out after Bob was ousted from his company Bill. The design may well have been based on Bob's stuff but the execution sure wasn't.




I could not agree more OBI! That's about the best description of it. I like how you said "BASED ON!" The execution part had to be quite funny to the Chinese rice eaters after they convinced the replacement owners of Carver Corp. they could build all the electronics for Carver "better & cheaper." I can almost hear them talking, "Stupid round eye!" "We trick Round Eye, they buy (shritty erektronics)! "Round Eye give money and get BoxOfShittyElectronics!"
So know we all know where B.O.S.E. originally came from! :lol:
I will add my own "style points" for that one!

Rainman


Rainman, my comment about Chinese built components applies very specifically tot he particular OEM that the Carver Board chose to do business with. Still today, there are many low cost Chinese (and other nationality) suppliers who do shoddy work just as much as there are some very good, reputable and dependable suppliers in China.

Also, I don't think that I have to remind anyone that in the rest of the world American built cars have been considered poorly built junk since Cadillac stopped being the "Standard Of The World" back in the 60s. Cadillac has just started to regain a semblance of this past glory and reputation with the CTS and the Corvette is also making inroads into the rest of the world with its much improved quality.
Why let facts or common sense get in the way of your opinions.
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RichP714

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Post Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:31 pm

Re: CLASH OF THE FLAT GIANTS

TNRabbit wrote:.....So who voted for "something different" and what was it??


These guys have a ribbon that's a static 7 ohm load with 93db/w/m efficiency; easier to drive and more stout than the carver type ribbon

Image

Image

http://www.newformresearch.com/technology.htm
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Dreamer

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Post Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:41 pm

Re: CLASH OF THE FLAT GIANTS

OBI56 wrote:Also, I don't think that I have to remind anyone that in the rest of the world American built cars have been considered poorly built junk since Cadillac stopped being the "Standard Of The World" back in the 60s. Cadillac has just started to regain a semblance of this past glory and reputation with the CTS and the Corvette is also making inroads into the rest of the world with its much improved quality.


I've always thought this was a rather two-faced stance from auto enthusiasts who were big on other nations manufacturers. I mean really. Lotus? Pre-Ford Jaguars? Triumph? Ferrari? Lamborghini? Is there a SINGLE car built by these manufacturers that can run for more than 5k miles without a trip to the garage?

When you try and run the defogger, the wipers, and the radio on a 60's Triumph or MG and the entire fuse panel melts down, it's considered just a "quirk of Lucas Electrics", and part of the "thrill" of owning such a car. In reality, its just shitty electrical engineering.

When you have to re-gap the plugs and re-adjust the timing on a Lambo after putting 5k miles on it, it's considered part of the "burden of owning a high performance machine". In reality, the Italians just can't build a machine that performs for more than a few months on the road without an overhaul.

When the power windows on your Lotus won't roll up when it starts to rain because the motors and wiring in the doors aren't sealed from water, getting rain pelting into the passenger compartment is just considered part of the "hard-core Brit motoring experience". Of course, since Lotus's don't have any radio or power seats, at least you don't have to worry about the electrics inside the car getting ruined by water...

American cars are no more shitty than anyone else's cars, except maybe some of the mid-line Japanese brands like the Camry or the CIVIC (which do have exemplary reliability...). And compared to the auto manufacturers from the "emerging nations" like China, India, and Eastern Europe, even the most crappy American marques are outstanding.

I mean what are you going to hold up against a Chevy or a Ford as "superior engineering" at the same price points?

A Skoda? Hyundai? Tata? Roewe?. Really...

And Canada doesn't even have their own brand of automobile, unless you consider snowmachines, and most of those brands are actually made in the Far East or South America anyway...

I've owned VW, Saab, Volvo, Oldsmobile, and Chevy. I had the VW (a '69 Beetle) for 11 years, and when I sold it, it had 1.2 MILLION miles on it. Sadly, the new VW's don't have NEARLY that sort of long-term reliability. Our '05 Jetta and 03 GTI are both starting to have problems. My Saab (900t) was a GREAT car--when it was running. The Volvo was good, but when I bought it, it was near the end of it's life, so it only lasted a year. My Olds (a '93 88 Royale) was 7 years old when I bought it from my Great Aunt, and I had that car for 6 years, and it was still going strong when I traded it in on my HHR. So far, the most reliable vehicles I've ever owned were either antique German, or brand-new American. And I'll probably continue to buy American cars until they all get bought up by the Chinese and Indians, and by then private ownership of automobiles will be illegal for anyone who's not part of the Nouveau-Nobility anyway...
.....HT Rig • Sony STR-DG600 Receiver • Carver M-500t • Sony BDP-S1 • Sony DVP-NS3100ES • Apple Airport Express •
..............................• Martin Logan Scenarios, Logos • Realistic Minimus 7's • Velodyne F-1500b •

2 Ch. Rig • Carver C-4000t • Silver 7t's • Krell KAV-300i • Oppo DV-981HD • Benchmark DAC1-USB • MacBook Pro 17", iTunes •
......• Technics SL-1350 turntable with Sumiko headshell, leads, and Bluepoint cartridge • Martin Logan Sequels •

.........................................................-+-Click Here to see my system-+-
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OBI56

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SILVER-7 TUBE AMP

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Post Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:07 am

Re: CLASH OF THE FLAT GIANTS

Point taken Richard, but you can hardly compare hand built fringe cars like Lotus, Ferarri, Lamborghini (pre VW), Triumph (out of business for 3 decades with good reason) to mass produced cars like Ford, GM, Toyota and Honda. Also comparing vintage automobiles to modern standards isn't quite fair either. Many 60s and 80s American cars were just as prone to failure as were ones from other countries as far as electricals, plugs and carburator adjustments go. I've owned both American (GM, Ford and Chrysler) and imports (Nissan, Hyundai and Toyota) and I have to say that by far the worst in terms of reliability and repairs have been my 5 GMs followed by my 1979 Chrysler. Tops in terms of reliability and lack of dealer visits were my Ford and 1 of my 2 Nissans. Come to think of it, my 3 Hyundais were also stone dead reliable never visiting the dealer beyond routine scheduled maintenance and all were run well over 120K miles (200K kliks).

Now, the main reason behind the imminent failure of the American auto industry has as much ot do with over 2 decades of building inferior product due to poor management decisions favoring stylishness and profit over quality and long term reliability. In that period the American auto manufacturers market share had shrunken by over half and the Japanese and Europeans has more than tripled. If American built cars were so good during those years, why did Americans stop buying them in droves? Things are changing and finally American automakers have finally gotten the message and are once again building world class automobiles but maybe it is too late.

BTW, I would hesitate to bunch Hyundai in with Skoda, Tata and Roewe. According to JD Powers, Hyundai has surpassed both Toyota and Honda in both initial quality and long term reliability. Where were GM and Ford in those ratings until this past year?

When I was still able to drive and I was in the market for a new car, I never made my choice of a car based on the country of origin; I actually went out and compared them one to the other (except for the GMs which were all Company cars forced on me and my wife). Only my first Hyundai was based on price alone; all the others were based on how they felt and drove. When given the choice ot buy the superior product, I buy it no matter where is is made.

One final anecdote on the subject: Buicks. In the past 2 years I have taken probably over 1000 taxi rides to and from medical appointments. Maybe a third of them have been in Buick taxicabs, all well under 3 years old. Of those over 300 taxi rides in Buicks, I have only ever had ONE single ride in one that didn't feel like it was falling apart or was going to lose a wheel after hitting a small pothole. Oddly enough I can't remember a taxi ride in a Toyota, Honda, Chrysler 300, Nissan, Hyundai or minivan of any brand of taxicab that was less than secure and serene. And isn't it also odd that the biggest selling foreign auto brand in China just happens to be Buick???
Why let facts or common sense get in the way of your opinions.
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PDR

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Post Sun Feb 22, 2009 2:42 am

Re: CLASH OF THE FLAT GIANTS

Dreamer you really dont know why Canada doesnt have its own automobile???

Check out the "Auto Pact"........then look up "Avro Arrow".......then check the dates....it should come clear

Perry
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BillD

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Post Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:27 am

Re: CLASH OF THE FLAT GIANTS

Most of my experience with cars is anecdotal. When WWII ended and a lot of military was stationed in Europe, people began bringing back from Europe a car that "didn't rattle" — the Mercedes Benz. I believe that phenomenon vaulted the company into the high regard it has even today. There were certainly inferior European cars, like... all of them, Fiat and Citroën to name a couple of French standouts. Japan hardly had an auto industry, but was making strides because of the industrialization that the war had brought. I was living in Germany 1958-1962. I begged my dad to buy a Mercedes to take home, but he opted for a VW which ultimately became my car (Victor Volks — from Michigan's "Hail to the Victors Valiant") which I drove all through college. I still lament the fact Dad never bought that Mercedes (the Gullwing 300SL was in production and sold for about $4,000 — about 4 VWs). My girlfriend (now wife) had a brand new 1969 Mustang her father gave her so she'd get rid of the Honda 90 motorbike she was using to get around. She got it just about the time my VW died, so we still had wheels. It was an OK car, but Michigan winters take a toll on cars. Fortunately, I went to work for Ford after college, and they leased me a new car every year. So I've had lots of Ford products — some good, some bad.

Unfortunately, my experience with the one Mercedes (450SL) I owned was very poor. Lots of transmission problems. But it was built like a tank. I'm sure the engine in it would run for half a million miles if the connecting parts were replaced regularly. My wife went totally to Japanese products after her experience with the Chrysler minivan, and my excellent experience with a Datsun Maxima Diesel (yes, they made them for a couple of years — mine was an '81, which I sold after getting the Mercedes). She has a Toyota Highlander and a Subaru Forester (the dog-mobile). I got rid of the Mercedes circa its 21st birthday (it was an '83 and I sold it in 2004 after getting my Porsche in 2001).

So, I don't have a single American-made vehicle in the shed today, sad for an old Detroit auto guy. I personally don't think anyone has an advantage on this playing field if you stay away from the pure crap (China, India, Russia, France, and some Italy). OBI's right that you can't compare "daily drivers" with Ferrari's, but my Boxster S is sporty and I drive it every day (it's my only car, save the dog-mobile) — so there are performance cars available that can be driven daily. I'm sure Z06s don't like to be driven 5 blocks to the grocery to pick up a quart of milk and back either. And, it's hard to figure out how to "buy American" as many of the foreign companies have set up shop here and employ U.S. citizens and use parts suppliers here also. Moreover, many U.S. automakers are using more and more foreign materials.

The real problem with the auto industry (as a whole, and the U.S. in particular) is the thought that people will continually need to buy N cars per year, every year (approaching one per person). People will WANT to buy, but when money gets tight, they won't. We manufacture altogether too many cars. You can make money in the auto business two ways, volume or exclusivity. In tough times, the latter usually wins, as the wealthy have the money and the desire for exclusivity.
It should sound like it isn't there!
There is a difference between hearing and listening...
Making life enjoyable through expensive electronics.
_________________
Carver: C-4000 & C-1 preamps, PSC-60 preamp/tuner, TX-11a tuner, M-400 (2), C-500, M-500, M-500t, M-500t Mk.II, A-500x, AL-III loudspeakers (2 pr.)
Sunfire:Theater Grand III processor, Ultimate Receiver, Cinema Grand Signature 400 ~ seven, True Subwoofer Mk. II, D-10 Subwoofer
<<

Rainman

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Post Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:27 pm

Re: CLASH OF THE FLAT GIANTS

I should have clarified a little more. I was not saying that all electronics from China are garbage. I was also not stating they are all inferior so I won't buy anything from them.
I was only noting that in the case of the gray button Carver gear they most certainly saw the "new" guys from Bob's old company "coming" and took full advantage.

Regarding your discussion on cars: due to my activites over the last 23 years I must claim "plausible denial" on top of the 5th amendment.
Let me give an example that can not be questioned since it comes directly from Websters Dictionary. If you look up Dodge in the dictionary it plainly says: To Avoid!
That seems like a pretty handy piece of info......

Rainman
Question: Do you know why turds are tapered on the ends? Answer: So your asshole doesn't slam shut..

Carver- SDA490t, SDA450, 2 TFM45's, TFM15, CT23, CT28v, CT27v, Linn Kaber speakers, Sunfire crm2's, PS Audio Statement speaker cables and I/C's, A.P.C. power
<<

BillD

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Post Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:32 pm

Re: CLASH OF THE FLAT GIANTS

Too true about Dodge.
It should sound like it isn't there!
There is a difference between hearing and listening...
Making life enjoyable through expensive electronics.
_________________
Carver: C-4000 & C-1 preamps, PSC-60 preamp/tuner, TX-11a tuner, M-400 (2), C-500, M-500, M-500t, M-500t Mk.II, A-500x, AL-III loudspeakers (2 pr.)
Sunfire:Theater Grand III processor, Ultimate Receiver, Cinema Grand Signature 400 ~ seven, True Subwoofer Mk. II, D-10 Subwoofer
<<

docadillac

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Location: The wet coast of Canada

Post Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:27 am

Re: CLASH OF THE FLAT GIANTS

It's always been the ribbons for me. I would love to build another system again.
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rolereversal

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TFM-25

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Location: Maple Ridge BC Canada

Post Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: CLASH OF THE FLAT GIANTS

D'oh...come on -this is a "carver site" could I vote for anything but! #-o
There is many nice sounding speakers that I have heard...but for the price....gotta be the ribbons.

Oh yeah... I am sure Gerhard would love for me to get a pole for the entertainment room. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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robotczar

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Post Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:29 pm

Re: CLASH OF THE FLAT GIANTS

I don't care much for polls (but I do like Poles). Can't afford the dance pole, and I am not sure what I would do with it. I also not sure why the CT-26 is crap, even if it was mass produced in China. I don't think is is crap just because it was mass produced in China.

Back to the original question. I own AL-IIIs and I really haven't heard anything better. Know that loudspeaker choice is based on taste in addition to accuracy and that rooms definitely matter. A good speaker in one room may sound like crap in another. I would not expect the AL-III to sound as good in a small room. Almost all panels and ribbons are designed to produce an ambient affect via reflections from rear projection. I assert this effect is similar to what surround sound is trying to achieve (and does in some cases). Using such speakers in a surround system seems problematic to me. So, we see that there is no one ideal speaker.

In addition, let me also say that I have never been satisfied with the bass response of any panel or ribbon speaker. I like the hybrid design of the AL-III even though it includes a box. Note that almost all subs are dynamic cones in a box or tube.
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engtaz

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"TAZ"

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Location: Tampa, FL

Post Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:33 pm

Re: CLASH OF THE FLAT GIANTS

Welcome robotczar.
engtaz


Carver M4.0T in front channels to Caver AL VI's in SACD & 2 Channel setup
C 16, PT 2400, Slim Device, Carver TX-8, 490T and Rega TT w Grado Gold cart in the 2 channel setup
Bogen SRB20 is computer amp
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