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Subwoofer integration with Amazings

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slonar

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Post Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:16 am

Subwoofer integration with Amazings

I am looking into adding a sub in my system, and would like some help or comments about crossover option for optimum integration.

I do not have a dedicated subwoofer output on my preamp (so no setting for small/large speakers either), after researching many different subs I see that some have pass threw crossovers that can actively send only the desired frequencies to the sub and at the same time only the above cut off to the mains, as other subs (most common) only filter the sub input frequency and you still have all the frequencies to the mains.

First off what frequency should the sub crossover be, I was thinking somewhere around 50hz as the Amazings do go pretty low?

Second, should I use the filter/crossover to cut out the frequencies the sub will produce to let the Amazings breath more (I would think so), the sub would do the 15hz to 50hz, and the Amazings would do the 50hz and up, or simply let the Amazings overlap the sub frequencies down to there own limit?
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TNRabbit

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Post Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:46 am

Re: Subwoofer integration with Amazings

Which model Amazings? Which sub are you looking at? What's your price range? Good sub values for the $$$ can be had from SVS, Hsu, Elemental Design, and Epik. The SVS PB13 Ultra is a helluva sub for the money (@ $ 1500 I think).

You generally want a sub to handle everything below the flat response of the speaker, so running the signal to your sub then out to the speakers would be the first setup I'd try. Of course, a lot depends a lot on your listening room. I use a Klipsch digital sub below 40 hz, cut way back to about -10 dB, and use my AL-IIIs full range. This has given me the best sound in my particular setup. My best advice would be to set it up in different configurations & see what works best for you.

FYI: The Plats are flat to 20 hz in the right setup...
TNRabbit
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slonar

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Post Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:12 pm

Re: Subwoofer integration with Amazings

Original Amazing with the 60" upgrade, I would like to go with a SVS PB-13, Or ED with a 15" design
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Dreamer

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Post Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:40 pm

Re: Subwoofer integration with Amazings

I noticed you said you were looking at subs with 15" drivers. One thing to remember about subwoofers is driver size and how that effects musicality. The larger the driver, the slower it is, and although a 15" sub can move a LOT of air, and might be GREAT for a "home theater" application, it might not be the best choice for music listening. Larger subs like that can sometimes sound sluggish or "bloated" with musical material...

You might also consider looking at subs with DSP capabilities, or built-in RTA/EQ. Sunfire, Klipsch, Velodyne, Polk, and JL all make very good subs that can essentially "integrate" themselves with your system using a mic and built-in hardware and software.

The SVS subs are VERY musical. Sunfires can be a good value, but are a little more on the "punchy, HT" side. Klipsch and Velodyne digital subs are also very musical, and can still give you a fair amount of punch and slam. JL Audio, and Martin Logan's digital subs are pretty much "universal", in that they have a TON of authority and "slam" for HT, and are VERY fast, accurate and musical, but they are also very spendy... ;)

With your Amazings, I'd suggest looking at the big SVS subs (which you mentioned), the Martin Logan Depth or Descent, and maybe one of the larger Sunfires or Velodynes.

Three main factors are your main speakers, your room, and the application (HT vs. music). If you let us know those factors, we can probably give a more definitive recommendation.

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skip

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Post Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:45 pm

Re: Subwoofer integration with Amazings

If you have upgraded ALS originals, I doubt you are going to gain much from using a sub. What amp are you driving them with? If your amp is less than 400W, your money may be better spent upgrading the amp to get more bass rather than a sub.
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frankieD

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Post Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:33 pm

Re: Subwoofer integration with Amazings

I'm with you Skip.

I can't imagine anyone needing more bass than I heard from your Rig at the fest. The bass was like a wall of sound. Of course they were being driven by the 600 x 2 Sunfire (the time I'm talking about).
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slonar

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Post Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:50 pm

Re: Subwoofer integration with Amazings

My amp is a Briston 4B, I actually have tons of base already but would like some of the really low bass, the kind that moves your stomach in a funny way, check out this setup http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_1 ... art-1.html this guy has 2 18" Velodines, I think if you want the very low bass you are better off with a subwoofer. My system is used 50% Music an 50% HT.

Anyways my original question was if any of you guys had any experience with integrating subs with the Amazings, and what crossover frequency where you using?
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BillD

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Post Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:33 pm

Re: Subwoofer integration with Amazings

Well, I'd get a subwoofer that can really do 20 Hz at 0dB down and set your crossover frequency at about 40Hz into it.
It should sound like it isn't there!
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Aaron S

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Post Sun Mar 15, 2009 7:50 pm

Re: Subwoofer integration with Amazings

Dreamer wrote:I noticed you said you were looking at subs with 15" drivers. One thing to remember about subwoofers is driver size and how that effects musicality. The larger the driver, the slower it is, and although a 15" sub can move a LOT of air, and might be GREAT for a "home theater" application, it might not be the best choice for music listening. Larger subs like that can sometimes sound sluggish or "bloated" with musical material...--Richard


Driver size in and of itself does not make a subwoofer sound 'fast' or 'slow'.

If a larger driver has an adequate motor to drive and control the cone, it will be every bit as 'fast' as an 8" or 10" will. 8)
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megasat16

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Post Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:01 pm

Re: Subwoofer integration with Amazings

I used Polk PSW1000 subwoofers crossed at 120Hz for each channel for L and R. So, there are two subs playing and they works quite well with the Platinum Amazing I have.

I also have two SVS PB13 Ultras in 15Hz mode and they are very musical too.

I am sure Velo subs and other musical subs will works well too.

Edit : Sorry I forgot to add that ED 18" sealed subs (a7s-450 with LT/1300 plate amps) are also very musical too. I've got two in my HT room.

If you are using your Amazing for HT, I suggest you run them as Full Range speakers (not crossed above 50Hz or more) and use subs to help complement the Amazings from 80Hz and down.
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TNRabbit

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Post Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:37 pm

Re: Subwoofer integration with Amazings

megasat16 wrote:I used Polk PSW1000 subwoofers crossed at 120Hz for each channel for L and R. So, there are two subs playing and they works quite well with the Platinum Amazing I have.

I also have two SVS PB13 Ultras in 15Hz mode and they are very musical too.

I am sure Velo subs and other musical subs will works well too.

Edit : Sorry I forgot to add that ED 18" sealed subs (a7s-450 with LT/1300 plate amps) are also very musical too. I've got two in my HT room.

If you are using your Amazing for HT, I suggest you run them as Full Range speakers (not crossed above 50Hz or more) and use subs to help complement the Amazings from 80Hz and down.


I absolutely disagree with you on this, megasat16 (don't take that the wrong way). In my experience, if your main speakers are capable of handling down to, say, 40 hz (and most full range are), that's where I'd set the crossover, as low as possible. 120 hz is WAY to high unless you're running Radio Shack Minimus 7 speakers or the like. It's criminal to crossover a set of Amazings that high! The lower you can get your crossover set (with capable mains), the better off you are. Up at 120 or even 80 hz, you're asking the sub to do WAY too much high frequency work. :(

There are certain applications where running your main speakers full range & supplementing with a sub is the way to go, but that is the exception rather than the rule. If you can possibly afford an SMS-1, they are an EXCELLENT way to integrate a sub with your system.
My $.02 backed up by a lot of experience & some really smart friends... :D
TNRabbit
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From FrankieD's lips to your ears: Sunfire - a quiet box of endless power.

Sunfire TG-IV/400~7 Amp
Carver SD/A-360 CDP
Benchmark DAC-1
Sony SACD/DVD-A
Active bi-amp: Ashly XR-1001 & 2 Rane PEQ-15s
Main: HotRodded AL-IIIs
Sub: Klipsch RT-12d
Center: Sunfire CRS-3c
Surround: Sunfire CRS-3 (x 2)

OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

RIP WIlliam B. Dibble, 1948-2012. I'll miss you my friend.
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megasat16

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Post Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:53 pm

Re: Subwoofer integration with Amazings

TNRabbit wrote:
megasat16 wrote:I used Polk PSW1000 subwoofers crossed at 120Hz for each channel for L and R. So, there are two subs playing and they works quite well with the Platinum Amazing I have.

I also have two SVS PB13 Ultras in 15Hz mode and they are very musical too.

I am sure Velo subs and other musical subs will works well too.

Edit : Sorry I forgot to add that ED 18" sealed subs (a7s-450 with LT/1300 plate amps) are also very musical too. I've got two in my HT room.

If you are using your Amazing for HT, I suggest you run them as Full Range speakers (not crossed above 50Hz or more) and use subs to help complement the Amazings from 80Hz and down.


I absolutely disagree with you on this, megasat16 (don't take that the wrong way). In my experience, if your main speakers are capable of handling down to, say, 40 hz (and most full range are), that's where I'd set the crossover, as low as possible. 120 hz is WAY to high unless you're running Radio Shack Minimus 7 speakers or the like. It's criminal to crossover a set of Amazings that high! The lower you can get your crossover set (with capable mains), the better off you are. Up at 120 or even 80 hz, you're asking the sub to do WAY too much high frequency work. :(

There are certain applications where running your main speakers full range & supplementing with a sub is the way to go, but that is the exception rather than the rule. If you can possibly afford an SMS-1, they are an EXCELLENT way to integrate a sub with your system.
My $.02 backed up by a lot of experience & some really smart friends... :D


Sorry Mr. Rabbit. I meant the 120Hz settings on the PSW1000 when used inline with the front mains when Amazings are running full range. Sorry to make you and everyone else confused.

I used pre-out of L fed to one PSW1000 and then piggyback the L preout to L side amp channel. I did the same for the R side with another PSW1000.

The L and R pre out are running in full range (not crossed in the AVR or pre/pro). PSW1000 have front panel crossover setting and I dialed them to 120Hz. I hope this explains why you disagree with me. :D

Edit : My bad for making things confused in the previous post. ](*,) #-o I forgot to add that I run all of my speakers in full range (large setting) with SMS-1 controlling the subs (for HT).
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Rainman

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Post Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:04 am

Re: Subwoofer integration with Amazings

I would like to add a note about lower frequencies. Even though they may be capable of producing the low freq's many speakers can not produce them at a volume that matches the other freq's correctly. With most speakers this usually affects freq's starting around 58-60 hz and below. Even though a particular pair of speakers can produce down to say 40hz most can not produce 40hz at a volume that will correctly match what they can produce at freq's above 60hz. With this in mind this is sometimes where a sub can really help balance things out at these lower freq's. The frequency numbers themselves are something that many people could research more to aid in things such as this. I am not implying that anything was incorrectly stated here, but I would like to suggest a couple things to look at. The actual frequency numbers of many sounds which are in the "lower" frequency range such as a kick drum can be quite a surprise when you find out what they actually are. The freq. of the kick drum which you feel in your chest is actually between 80-100hz... This is usually a higher number than people would expect, so if you are lacking some punch in your system keep this in mind.
Not saying that anyone is doing or saying anything wrong, but it was a very eye opening experience for me to be shown what was actually going on with the numbers to sounds in the frequency range. This leads me to mentioning I think many of the frequency numbers below 40hz are overstated more than they need to be. As I mentioned I learned about this thanks to a friend and I wish I could show everyone what the actual freq. of 20hz actually sounds like! 20hz is on the very bottom edge of what your ears can recognize as a sound and is barely audible even at quite a db level. Once I was shown the actual numbers associated with what they sound like it was interesting to discover what my gear was actually doing. What I thought I wanted my gear to do also ended up being not what it actually needed to in terms of the actual numbers. Trust me 20hz was not a big requirement for my sub when I actually heard 20hz all by itself.... Just some stuff to think about / read about...

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megasat16

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Post Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:33 am

Re: Subwoofer integration with Amazings

Rainman, Good Review about bass frequency!

I do found out that most of the 20Hz or lower frequencies are good for HT mainly.

For the Amazing Platinums, I think the bass goes down to 20Hz as I can feel the bass but I can't hear much.

Adding subs with higher frequency setting (120Hz in my case) for the Amazings helps the upper bass region where the AL3 outshines Platinums or Original Amazings.

For people who are used to bass coming from box woofers / subwoofers, the bass coming from the Open Baffle subs in Amazings (Original, Platinum, Platinum MKIV, and the Silver) series speakers is not very easy to get used to or takes time to get used to. I found that there is a very large bass presents from these speakers and I can definitely feel my body mass shaking and hear windows rattling. It's just that the bass is not tight or punchy as in the box type subs. I found the placement and the room size plays a vital role to get the good bass open baffle subs from the ALS speakers (except AL3 and AL3 Plus). A little less forgiving ALS is the Platinum MKIV with variable Q factor so one can overdamp the subs and tighten the bass a little bit. But it's not comparable to the tight bass coming from the AL-3 plus speakers I had auditioned before.

I've tried several different amps with my ALS and also have to agree on the higher power amps brings out a bit better bass but the subs are also reaching the excursion limits with lots of power. Very large presence of bass is there but not tight or punchy as any box type sub. So, it's either you need to get used to Open Baffle bass or get a sub to suit your taste. For me, adding a pair of PSW1000 subs puts a smile on my face.
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treitz3

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Post Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:34 am

Re: Subwoofer integration with Amazings

Velodyne SMS-1. 'Nuff said. VMPS Larger is something you may want to consider as well. Both pair well when amplified properly.
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