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Platnium and Silver Replacement Woofers Where/How/Install

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clockdocto

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Post Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:01 pm

Platnium and Silver Replacement Woofers Where/How/Install

Recently found as many have that all six in my silvers had rotten surrounds. Since I have 30 plus years repairing/restoring consumer electronics I figured not a problem. First off --- there is no replacement surround that fits properly. Got them from EBay and used them on another project. Since, I specialize in tube electronics, I went to the Antique Electronic Supply (AES) web site. They are tubesandmore.com. After much research, measuring, talking to AES, etc. I ordered six of their Sica Solid P-A-SLD12-100-16's. These are 100 watt, 16ohm, 12" speakers. I drive mine with a 4.0t and wanted to be sure the replacement could handle the amp. Sica is company in Italy that makes Jensen's. These are about $36 each plus shipping. Very close to the same size and probably can be used, are the Jensen Mod P-A-Mod12-110-16. 110watt. These are about $78.00 each. (You may be able to use the Mod 70 watt version. I do not know the original rating of the carver's, but judging from the size of the resistor in the crossover 70's are probably fine) As you all know the original Carvers are actually 11" speakers, and 16ohm. Bottom line is this ---- they will fit the original case with minimal alteration. You must cut the 10" nominal opening with a jig saw to accommodate the P-A. I found a flat round plastic lid in the kitchen that worked as a template. You will remove about an inch. Do not use the outside of the speaker frame as a guide, the opening will be to big. To simplify:

1. Remove front grille, screws in the back. 2. Remove rear cover, screws in the front under the grille. 3. Make a wiring/reminder diagram/note to show how the speakers are hooked up. Double check, and compare to the other speaker. Then unsolder the old speakers. Remove them. If you are worried --- do the left first start to finish then, compare wiring to the the original right speaker, if all is correct --- do the right one. 4. Lay the speaker down on it's back, prop up the top to make it flat. (Note you may have to unscrew the crossover temporarily, just to have it out of the way) 5. Pencil in your cut line, and cut your first speaker hole larger. 6. Test fit. 7. Do the rest. 8. Designate the colored or + tab as positive and the other as negative. Solder them up. Point here is to be consistent so that the speakers will be in phase. 9. check again that all is well. 10. The rear cover fits back no problem. The front will fit, but more closely than before. Patience is a virtue. Start at one corner. It will fit unless you really did not center the new speakers.

Ok, how did it all turn out. Simply great and you will be surprised at just how much sound you had been missing as your original speakers were going bad. I have listened using movie soundtracks, rock, 1812 overture with cannon and musket fire, as well as easy listening. No, I have not intentionally driven them to the amp max.

Last thing I had to do was to reanalyze the sound spectrum. I greatly reduced my bass levels. You will probably have to do this also.

As of the date of this post AES had 55 of the 16ohm Sica Solids in stock. The 8ohm version may work just as well. I chose the 16ohm ones based on my test of the voice coil resistance.

Any questions???? Lee -- Yesteryear Radio and The Clock Doc
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TNRabbit

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Post Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:30 pm

Re: Platnium and Silver Replacement Woofers Where/How/Install

Orevox makes an almost exact replacement for the original woofers, @ $45 each.
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BillD

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Post Sat Feb 21, 2009 7:01 pm

Re: Platnium and Silver Replacement Woofers Where/How/Install

Weren't Orevox (nee Dynavox) the OEM of the woofers for the Amazings (other than the IIIs)
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F1nut

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Post Sat Feb 21, 2009 8:08 pm

Re: Platnium and Silver Replacement Woofers Where/How/Install

BillD wrote:Weren't Orevox (nee Dynavox) the OEM of the woofers for the Amazings (other than the IIIs)


Yes, they were and the ones they sell today are exactly the same as the originals. Absolutely no need to go thru what clockdocto chose to do.
Political Correctness...defined

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In a recent press conference, President Obama remarked, "If I had a city, it would look just like Detroit."
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clockdocto

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Post Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:09 pm

Re: Platnium and Silver Replacement Woofers Where/How/Install

Ok, educate me. Where do you buy the Dynavox replacements? I tried googling both Dynavox and Orevox. Dynavox was no longer showing any woofers or drivers of any kind. The originals were probably a dollar cost compromise. Also, if they are the OEM supplier, considering the quality of the ones I pulled from my silvers why would I want to put the same quality back. Does anyone have the actual specs for the originals? I am new to this forum, but not new to vintage electronics. Frankly, I expected better originals and that is another reason I went on the hunt for another option. Let me suggest this --- take a look at Sica Solid and the Jensen Mod on the tubesandmore.com web site. Yes, the install takes work. But in my opinion, for what it is worth, the result is a better sounding speaker. Note that I have absolutely no vested interest in Antique Electronics Supply. In all fairness, I have been a customer for parts since they opened.

The only real difference here is that you do have to make mounting hole larger for accommodate a Sica/Jensen. All the other stuff will have to be done regardless, since the originals are soldered in.
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F1nut

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Post Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:37 pm

Re: Platnium and Silver Replacement Woofers Where/How/Install

Political Correctness...defined

A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.



In a recent press conference, President Obama remarked, "If I had a city, it would look just like Detroit."
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clockdocto

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Post Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:13 pm

Re: Platnium and Silver Replacement Woofers Where/How/Install

Ok, maybe it is just me, but has anyone in the past four months or whatever actually purchased replacements from Dynavox. Also do they have foam surrounds. As I said when I went to Dynavox web site, they showed zero availability of any type driver let alone woofers. I read pages 11-14 on the topic you suggested. What did I miss???

What I have suggested by using AES and Sica Solid's or Jensen Mod's is a here and now fix. Speakers that are in stock, are 16ohm, and with just some cabinet mod, work, and again --- my opinion only --- sounded great.

The problem in the first place for me was the inability to purchase a drop in replacement. I spent a couple of months looking at the options. This was my solution, maybe not the best one, but my speakers are up and playing.
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F1nut

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Post Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:29 pm

Re: Platnium and Silver Replacement Woofers Where/How/Install

As I understand it, they changed their website and for some reason the woofers/drivers are no longer listed. Anyway, give them a call or email to order.

The foam surrounds have never been sold separately.

Read from the beginning.
Political Correctness...defined

A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.



In a recent press conference, President Obama remarked, "If I had a city, it would look just like Detroit."
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megasat16

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Post Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:36 pm

Re: Platnium and Silver Replacement Woofers Where/How/Install

Hello Clockdocto,

Welcome to the Carver Forum! Please feel free to make yourself at home!

Regarding the replacement woofers for the ALS and Silver, F1 is right and the Orevox (Dynavox) offers direct replacement for both Honeycomb Type (older ones that came with the Original ALS) and the Paper Cone Type (newer one for Platinum and MKIV).

I've bought one as recent as 3 weeks ago from Orevox and they carry them at $45 each. I am a local so I went there to pickup from them. You can call them and order them also but I think you need to send a check or money order for the entire order plus shipping charges.

It's nice to know how people have talents to make things work and restore them even if the direct replacement is not available or known to you yet. Good Work on getting things done even without the proper tools (woofer) at your disposal. I am a little interested in how it sounds compare to the Direct Replacement woofers or the Original Ones. I have one pair of Plat with all good working woofer cones in it and I have another pair of Plat (MKIV) with all 8 replacement woofers in it. The difference is minimal but I think I still prefer the Original Ones come with the Plats. I can't describe it but they do not sound 100% identical when comes to music reproduction IMO. I've properly broken in the replacement woofers in the other Plats so I don't think it's a problem.
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clockdocto

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Post Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:54 pm

Re: Platnium and Silver Replacement Woofers Where/How/Install

In my case with the Sica Solids I found that I have to reduce the bass substantially using my spectrum analyzer. I do not know, but suspect that the originals were failing and hence required bass boost to compensate.

I am very satisfied with the result. That said, a drop in replacement would have been nice. It took me about two extra hours to cut the mounting holes out. That said, sound is in the ear of the listener. I just play the music, however, I have a good friend who has a complete 24/48 track recording studio and does cd and record production professionally. He is also an accomplished musician. His comment was: "Wow, what a great sounding pair of speakers". He had heard them before repair, when we were listening to a cd he had just completed for a client. That is when I noted bass breakup and began my sojourn to get them repaired.

Where we are now: One day, if Orevox/Dynavox no longer is a source or if one wants to try something else, here is a tried and it worked option.

If you can --- could you attach an pic of the new driver from Orevox? Or email to me with it as an attachment
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docadillac

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Post Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:25 am

Re: Platnium and Silver Replacement Woofers Where/How/Install

I had to replace all the drivers in a pair of originals a few years ago. I had tried everywhere I could think of to find perfect original replacements. I had 0 luck on that. So I thought maybe I could use the original frames and magnets and rebuild them that way. I eventually found a local company that could and did take on the project and made some beautiful replacements. They used the original frames and magnets and custom built everything else. The fundamental frequency measured 25hz at their lowest point before break-in. They were 16ohm and to top it off the efficiency improved making them an easier job for the amp to drive. I was using a 4.0t. I used the same wiring configuration following the diagrams I drew staying faithful to the original design. It was a gamble but it worked. I hope that if the originals are discontinued people will try to find alternative ways to deal with the replacement driver issue. Yes it would be great if we could still access those original drivers but if not I am convinced that there are viable alternatives out there.
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radioeng2

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Post Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:54 pm

Re: Platnium and Silver Replacement Woofers Where/How/Install

Glad you got something going for your speakers Doc, but looking at the specs for those drivers, it looks like they are much less than an ideal driver for open baffle use. At .43 total Q they are radically different than the originals.

For OB use, to get proper bass, you normally find it desirable to get above about .75 in Q. The original drivers had a extremely high Q and deviating greatly like this will significantly alter the sound away from a proper balance, I'd suspect! Not just a tone control to restore balance presentation, but probably you'd need a meat grinder multiband EQ.

Also, these drivers resonance is at 82hz. Some of you may, but I don't know the originals spec in that regard. But I'd suspect with the gain of proximity, you have enough level, that you are getting a lot of mid and upper bass impact, but really would fall off at lower frequencies. Aggravated a lot by the stiffer suspension of the too low Q. Lots of times a hole in response is kind of hard to identify at first, but eventually you play a song that needs that point to sound correct and once identified, it gets a lot more obvious.

There are other high Q drivers around, that while not the same as the orginals, would probably be closer and require much less alterations than the Sica. But hopefully, by the number of people funneled to the originals via here, the most correct drivers will remain available for quite a while!!

Mark
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docadillac

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Post Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: Platnium and Silver Replacement Woofers Where/How/Install

radioeng2 wrote:Glad you got something going for your speakers Doc, but looking at the specs for those drivers, it looks like they are much less than an ideal driver for open baffle use. At .43 total Q they are radically different than the originals.

For OB use, to get proper bass, you normally find it desirable to get above about .75 in Q. The original drivers had a extremely high Q and deviating greatly like this will significantly alter the sound away from a proper balance, I'd suspect! Not just a tone control to restore balance presentation, but probably you'd need a meat grinder multiband EQ.

Also, these drivers resonance is at 82hz. Some of you may, but I don't know the originals spec in that regard. But I'd suspect with the gain of proximity, you have enough level, that you are getting a lot of mid and upper bass impact, but really would fall off at lower frequencies. Aggravated a lot by the stiffer suspension of the too low Q. Lots of times a hole in response is kind of hard to identify at first, but eventually you play a song that needs that point to sound correct and once identified, it gets a lot more obvious.

There are other high Q drivers around, that while not the same as the orginals, would probably be closer and require much less alterations than the Sica. But hopefully, by the number of people funneled to the originals via here, the most correct drivers will remain available for quite a while!!

Mark


Thanks Mark, I knew the drivers had to be high Q and that was one of the design parameters. The substituted suspension was very close to the original as well. I am curious as to how you came up with the Q figure however. These were built with separate parts all combined to make a conventional appearing woofer (no honeycombs). The criteria was that they had to be exactly the same in their specifications as the originals, at least in terms of their performance. They were given all the specs of the originals and then told to build them using the original frame and magnet structure. They were a resulting high Q as requested or I would not have bought them.
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F1nut

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Post Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:46 pm

Re: Platnium and Silver Replacement Woofers Where/How/Install

Mark's comment was directed at the clock doc.
Political Correctness...defined

A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.



In a recent press conference, President Obama remarked, "If I had a city, it would look just like Detroit."
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docadillac

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Post Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:29 am

Re: Platnium and Silver Replacement Woofers Where/How/Install

#-o #-o F1-nut you're right. I thought he was using Doc as an abbreviation. My mistake. Thanks for pointing that out.
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