FAQ  •  Register   •  Gallery •  Login

It is currently Thu Nov 27, 2014 6:53 am

MKIV ALS turns TFM-35X meter light into disco light, normal?

<<

vette45

Newbie

Posts: 27

Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:24 pm

Post Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:40 am

MKIV ALS turns TFM-35X meter light into disco light, normal?

I have finally fully broken-in (well over 20 hrs of relatively loud play) the 8 new woofers I replaced on my MKIV ALS. So I decided to push the limit tonight with my TFM-35x. Armed with a Radio Shack sound level meter and measuring at 11ft from the speakers, I cranked the volume until the TFM meter registered ~250watts with some deep bass passing it ocassionally. At that point the RS meter measured 95-99dB and the music was certainly amazing and heart felt.

But here's the problem, I also noticed the TFM meter light started to dim/dance as the volume increases and when the needles reached the top end, the lights were almost fadded to off mode. So my questions are...

1. Is this normal for the TFM meter light to dim/dance with high volume output?
2. Is this indicative of not enough juice or power reserve from the TFM-35x? i.e. I need a bigger amp(s) to drive these ALS MKIV?
3. Or is this an issue of the 110V power circuit not providing the nesseary current? If so, can it be fixed with a power supply conditioner?
4. Will prolong playing of music with this condition/setup damage either the speakers or the amp?

:-k
<<

skip

User avatar

aka (Sasquach)

Posts: 1870

Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:47 pm

Location: Gaston, S.C.

Post Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:08 am

Re: MKIV ALS turns TFM-35X meter light into disco light, normal?

The meter lights on my 9t's are cooked, so I can't tell you if this is common with Carver amps. I don't have that problem with my pair of M-500t's that are both on the same 15 amp circuit in my secondary system, but I don't push them to max levels. The light I have in my main music room with the 9t's does dim with each deep bass note though. My guess is that you are on a 15 amp circuit and may have other items drawing current on the same circuit. One thing I've noticed is that Carver amps are greedy bullies and will suck most of the available juice out of any circuit and starve any other poor electronic device unlucky enough to have to share the same circuit. The problem hasn't hurt my amps or Plats, but I'm sure I miss some power by not having a dedicated 20 amp circuit for the system. There are lots of TFM owners on the forum as well as some electrical experts that I'm sure will give you better advise and info than I'm able to provide.
Sasquatch
TnRabbit's Assistant Official OCCD Enabler.

How long a minute is, depends on what side of the bathroom door you're on.
<<

stevewithrow

User avatar

SILVER-7t

Posts: 1327

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:59 am

Location: Great NorthWest.....Carver Country..

Post Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:59 am

Re: MKIV ALS turns TFM-35X meter light into disco light, normal?

I have the originals ALS,s...I use a TFM-35 at the moment to run em .....My lights also dim . I crossed the internal x-over in my TGP at 125 HZ...every thing bellow that is sent to my Paradigm sub . Now with that being said , I have the 35 plugged into a Monster power conditioner . I have noticed that when I run the ALS,s in the large speaker format from the TGP , the TFM just labors.....Now get this , one time I looked at the Monster ,( it shows amp draw ) and it spiked at 7.9 amps one time with the bass.....this is with every thing going to the ALS...20-20,000 HZ ( no sub ).......When I did the math ( ohm,s law )..it came to 474 watts per channel......that cant be good for the little 35...and and 7.9 amps , well i,m on a 20 amp circuit...That just tells me the the 35 is ready to go up in puff of smoke . Now i just run the ALS,s from the TGP in a small speaker config , every thing above 125 HZ to the ALS,s and and every thing else ( below ) to the sub....And to be honest , I dont even play them all the much....I need the Sunfire 600x2 I think to make those sing...If the lights on the TFM start dimming I turn it down.....
<<

BillD

User avatar

(pair of) SILVER-7 TUBE AMPs

Posts: 7295

Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:29 pm

Location: The west's most mid-western town, Scottsdale, Arizona

Post Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:31 pm

Re: MKIV ALS turns TFM-35X meter light into disco light, normal?

I think you'll have that problem with any amp that uses power off the rails for the lamps as you starve the amplifier into overload. The M-500(t) has a separate (very small) transformer to power the lamps.
It should sound like it isn't there!
There is a difference between hearing and listening...
Making life enjoyable through expensive electronics.
_________________
Carver: C-4000 & C-1 preamps, PSC-60 preamp/tuner, TX-11a tuner, M-400 (2), C-500, M-500, M-500t, M-500t Mk.II, A-500x, AL-III loudspeakers (2 pr.)
Sunfire:Theater Grand III processor, Ultimate Receiver, Cinema Grand Signature 400 ~ seven, True Subwoofer Mk. II, D-10 Subwoofer
<<

vette45

Newbie

Posts: 27

Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:24 pm

Post Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:54 pm

Re: MKIV ALS turns TFM-35X meter light into disco light, normal?

Hi stevewithrow,

Can you please confirm whether you notice any differences with vs. without the addition of your Monster pwr conditioner? i.e. Can you hear any improvement especially when fast deep bass strikes with the added pwr conditioner? I understand you mentioned even the Monster reserve were drawn to zero at times. So the question is could a more powerful pwr conditioner have solved the problem by providing the necessary juice for the TFM-35x to perform? I can't imagine destroying the walls to add a dedicated circuit will be on the wife approval list any time soon. BTW, what about even more powerful amp or less efficient amp, this is just the TFM-35x that we are talking about here, what people do with the really big dogs?

Last but not least, I still need help with my fundmental questions. i.e. should we use the TFM meter light dimming as a threshold indicator for maximum optimal output and is the TFM-35x simply insufficient for the ALS platinum MKIV?

Thanks,
<<

beemers417

User avatar

!! CarverFest Evictee !!

Posts: 1422

Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:05 pm

Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Post Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:20 pm

Re: MKIV ALS turns TFM-35X meter light into disco light, normal?

Interesting concept. Amount of dimming / optimal sound. I would think you could gauge it. :-k :-k :-k

Try a pair of 35x amps with your IV's. I get very good sound with a set of 35's. It is not to harsh on the amps being the IV's are 8 ohm. Where is a TFM-75 when you need two? 8)
Gunter the wonder dog is watching you...
<<

TNRabbit

User avatar

(pair of) SILVER-7 TUBE AMPs

Posts: 13342

Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:53 am

Location: TN Native Languishing in VA

Post Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:05 pm

Re: MKIV ALS turns TFM-35X meter light into disco light, normal?

How old is your 35x? Has it ever had the caps replaced?
TNRabbit
Image

From FrankieD's lips to your ears: Sunfire - a quiet box of endless power.

Sunfire TG-IV/400~7 Amp
Carver SD/A-360 CDP
Benchmark DAC-1
Sony SACD/DVD-A
Active bi-amp: Ashly XR-1001 & 2 Rane PEQ-15s
Main: HotRodded AL-IIIs
Sub: Klipsch RT-12d
Center: Sunfire CRS-3c
Surround: Sunfire CRS-3 (x 2)

OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

RIP WIlliam B. Dibble, 1948-2012. I'll miss you my friend.
<<

mewisemagic

User avatar

M-400t CUBE

Posts: 196

Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:21 pm

Location: n.c.

Post Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:10 pm

Re: MKIV ALS turns TFM-35X meter light into disco light, normal?

i think somewhere there was a service bulletin on this from carver, i emailed roland about it and that is the info i got back.but mine does it and its ok
carver ct29v,tfm-15cb,tfm-35x,m1-ot,tlm-3600, pair of 9 t's ,c5,adcom 535 II,oppo 981 dvd, polk sda srs 2.3tl,polk sda srs 1.2
tfm-42,AL-III+, yaqin 10l
<<

Jag_97470

SILVER-7 TUBE AMP

Posts: 3383

Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:06 am

Location: Oregon

Post Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:13 pm

Re: MKIV ALS turns TFM-35X meter light into disco light, normal?

It almost sounds like the TFM-35 is just not powerful enough for the speakers, that is using full range. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember reading power conditioners should only be used on source components, and amp's should actually be plugged in directly to the wall!! Depending on the design of the power conditioner, these can actually take away performance from the amp? You don't need to tear apart the wall, you can floor mount these;

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_681SOLOIST ... ist&tp=568

There are several reviews of this line filter including installation tips. I like the floor mount option, just go under house and run wire to breaker box > dedicated line!
<<

TNRabbit

User avatar

(pair of) SILVER-7 TUBE AMPs

Posts: 13342

Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:53 am

Location: TN Native Languishing in VA

Post Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:28 pm

Re: MKIV ALS turns TFM-35X meter light into disco light, normal?

MOST power conditioners will not pass enough juice for high-powered amps. The exception is the PS Audio Power Plant Premier: http://www.psaudio.com/ps/products/deta ... ?cat=power


The TFM-35 is a little lightweight for those speakers if you listen at high volume levels. I ended up bi-amping my AL-IIIs with 800 watts per frequency set...
TNRabbit
Image

From FrankieD's lips to your ears: Sunfire - a quiet box of endless power.

Sunfire TG-IV/400~7 Amp
Carver SD/A-360 CDP
Benchmark DAC-1
Sony SACD/DVD-A
Active bi-amp: Ashly XR-1001 & 2 Rane PEQ-15s
Main: HotRodded AL-IIIs
Sub: Klipsch RT-12d
Center: Sunfire CRS-3c
Surround: Sunfire CRS-3 (x 2)

OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

RIP WIlliam B. Dibble, 1948-2012. I'll miss you my friend.
<<

vette45

Newbie

Posts: 27

Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:24 pm

Post Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:07 pm

Re: MKIV ALS turns TFM-35X meter light into disco light, normal?

TNRabbit, I'm the original owner of the TFM-35x since 95-96, it has never been broken or serviced. BTW, I'm pretty handy, is there a good receipe for overhauling the 35x to make it perform better? Before the ALS, it was just driving a pair of DCM TimeFrame600 and the meter light just barely dim even when I crank the volume to insane level and my ear asked me to stop. Thanks also for the suggestion for the pwr conditioner, but $2200, it's just too costly and it started to sounds like pwr conditoner is not a good idea for big amp anyway, right?

mewisemagic, do you still have copy/link to the service bulletin regarding this?

beemers417, I've considered getting extra 35x and run them in mono, but many forum experts advised otherwise due to 4ohms dip for some freq range on these platinum ALS which is bad news for the 35x in mono mode. And many says mono mode actually would degrade the sonic performance of the amp. So I gave up on that idea.

Jag_97470, floor mounting unfortunately is just as difficult in my situation.

Thanks,
<<

gdb

User avatar

SILVER-7t

Posts: 1705

Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:43 pm

Location: Central Maryland

Post Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:28 pm

Re: MKIV ALS turns TFM-35X meter light into disco light, normal?

What does it sound like when your meter lights almost fade to black?? If you're getting distortion/clipping at that point, I'd be A LOT more concerned about what's happening to your speakers than what the cute little lights are doing ! :shock: A bunch of Silver T amps on ebay right now. :-" :)
<<

vette45

Newbie

Posts: 27

Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:24 pm

Post Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:03 pm

Re: MKIV ALS turns TFM-35X meter light into disco light, normal?

It was so loud when the needle is dancing around 250watt so I found it difficult to hear any subtle distortion. Are there any good tricks to detect/verify distortion/clipping? Even better if these tricks can signal near-clipping/distortion before it actually happens.

BTW, what would distortion/clipping do to the ribbon style speaker elements like those on the ALS?

Anyway, I'm still trying to confirm whether there is an issue of not enough 110V/supply current to the TFM-35x or is it theTFM-35x doesn't have enough juice/power reserve to drive the ALS, or maybe both? Anyone has a good idea on how to test?

Thanks,
<<

gdb

User avatar

SILVER-7t

Posts: 1705

Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:43 pm

Location: Central Maryland

Post Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:22 pm

Re: MKIV ALS turns TFM-35X meter light into disco light, normal?

I just trust my ears to detect clipping/distortion, but, I've never had any ribbon drivers so I don't have any point of reference for knowing what "clippage" would sound like with them. I do know that everything I've ever read about Carver speakers is......they are POWER HUNGRY WHORES !! I doubt that a TFM-35 will ever satisfy them (or you), maybe two 35s (bi-amped) would suffice. :-k Good luck !!!
<<

Jag_97470

SILVER-7 TUBE AMP

Posts: 3383

Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:06 am

Location: Oregon

Post Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:57 pm

Re: MKIV ALS turns TFM-35X meter light into disco light, normal?

ummm, I would keep my eye open for a Sunfire 600X2 or pick up another 35 and try bi-amp? Just my opinion, I would go for more 2 channel power like the Sunfire.
Next

Return to Carver Speakers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Powered by phpBB © 2011 phpBB Group.