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Anybody want a cable swap at the 'fest?

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TNRabbit

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Post Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:58 am

Re: Anybody want a cable swap at the 'fest?

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treitz3

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Post Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:14 am

MMMmmmmmmK?

Image

:D
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to a good analogue reproduction.

Robert R. - "Did you see my North Korea analogy? I should have named it Carversite.kim"
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Magnaryder

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Post Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:54 pm

Re: MMMmmmmmmK?

treitz3 wrote:Image

:D



Glad to see you haven't lost your sense of humor Tom :-)

honestly though, I don't think I can hear well enough to hear the difference. But this I do know. My AN-9 speaker cables did sound different on the old rig. They make no difference on the Lightstar rig.... or my hearing sucks. I have started to ride the bike with ear plugs.
Magnaryder

Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.

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treitz3

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Post Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:18 pm

I hope I never lose my sense of humor.

Well, it will be a learning experiment for all involved as I won't be bringing my rig this year. Just my cables. Whatever we hear, we will all be learning and hearing together because it will have to be on a rig that I haven't used them in yet. The rig is still yet to be determined but I do have one in mind.
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to a good analogue reproduction.

Robert R. - "Did you see my North Korea analogy? I should have named it Carversite.kim"
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kingman

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Post Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:25 pm

Re: Anybody want a cable swap at the 'fest?

Share your thoughts...... :-s
In reality, it only matters what it sounds like to YOU!!!
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treitz3

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Post Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:32 pm

Re: Anybody want a cable swap at the 'fest?

If I told you, I'd have to kill you. :-#
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to a good analogue reproduction.

Robert R. - "Did you see my North Korea analogy? I should have named it Carversite.kim"
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Toy Maker

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Post Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:34 pm

Re: Anybody want a cable swap at the 'fest?

Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah holy shit.....

I was referring to YOUR system, not mine :lol:
There were 5-6 of us that thought you were going deaf, cause you said your system was all tweaked.
If I recall correctly, I remember some one whispering... "No Highs, No Lows... Must be Bose" :shock:
Bend over and take it like a man Tom... we'll still love you in the morning
Image


But, back to the half-assed A/B test... a few posts ago, we said it wasn't a real A/B because you were hearing the 2 different DACs
And YES, you heard a difference between the Squeezebox, and the Tascam CD...
BUT (here's the part I like) Every time, you said one sounded better than the other, you picked the SQEEZEBOX
Image

We'll get the test right this year... MAYBE :rolleyes:
Whatever you do in life will be insignificant, but it's very important that you do it... because nobody else will.

‎~You think Einstein walked around thinkin' everyone was a bunch of dumb shits?~

SHUT UP AND ENJOY THE MUSIC!
╭∩╮(︶︿︶)╭∩╮

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treitz3

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Post Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:18 am

Re: Anybody want a cable swap at the 'fest?

Yeah, yeah.....I'll respond to this when I get a little bit more time. :rolleyes:
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to a good analogue reproduction.

Robert R. - "Did you see my North Korea analogy? I should have named it Carversite.kim"
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Toy Maker

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Post Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:34 am

Re: Anybody want a cable swap at the 'fest?

treitz3 wrote:Yeah, yeah.....I'll respond to this when I get a little bit more time. :rolleyes:


Don't bother, it's just going to be a bunch of "I was too drunk" or "it was too late" or "it was new tubes" or "it was a different room" excuses... Just show up and prove me wrong. Until then, :-$
Whatever you do in life will be insignificant, but it's very important that you do it... because nobody else will.

‎~You think Einstein walked around thinkin' everyone was a bunch of dumb shits?~

SHUT UP AND ENJOY THE MUSIC!
╭∩╮(︶︿︶)╭∩╮

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OconeeOrange

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Post Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:37 pm

Re: Anybody want a cable swap at the 'fest?

If anyone is interested, just found a site on the web that sells these cables.
I already put in an order to replace all mine.


Gold plated zirconium Cable in Carbon gels.

Immersing the raw conductor in specific oil which is produced from a very rare and highly poisonous snake found in the Brazilian rain forest (and long on the list of endangered species) will provide more "texture" to the music as well as more "bite" to violins. The immersion process needs to be undertaken by certified vestal virgins who are sacrificed to the Audio-God's after completing their task.
Unfortunately this is a very expensive process due to large numbers of native red Indian's who are bitten by the snakes when trying to collect them to get the oil as well as the large number of snakes needed to provide a small measure full of this precious oil. Also vestal virgins are getting kind'a rare. So do not expect an industrial application anytime soon.


These are the real deal, and as good as it gets.
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Don

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Post Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:47 am

Re: Anybody want a cable swap at the 'fest?

OconeeOrange wrote:If anyone is interested, just found a site on the web that sells these cables.
I already put in an order to replace all mine.


Gold plated zirconium Cable in Carbon gels.

Immersing the raw conductor in specific oil which is produced from a very rare and highly poisonous snake found in the Brazilian rain forest (and long on the list of endangered species) will provide more "texture" to the music as well as more "bite" to violins. The immersion process needs to be undertaken by certified vestal virgins who are sacrificed to the Audio-God's after completing their task.
Unfortunately this is a very expensive process due to large numbers of native red Indian's who are bitten by the snakes when trying to collect them to get the oil as well as the large number of snakes needed to provide a small measure full of this precious oil. Also vestal virgins are getting kind'a rare. So do not expect an industrial application anytime soon.


These are the real deal, and as good as it gets.



Bring them to Carverfest for the cable swap! Make sure you wear latex gloves. Those snake oil cables are deadly! :lol: :lol: :lol:
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.
— Thomas Paine


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RIP Bill D.
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Rainman

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Post Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:23 pm

Re: I hope I never lose my sense of humor.

treitz3 wrote:Well, it will be a learning experiment for all involved as I won't be bringing my rig this year. Just my cables. Whatever we hear, we will all be learning and hearing together because it will have to be on a rig that I haven't used them in yet.


It's likely that there won't be nearly as much heard/learned as there would be if the system used could be set up in a proper listening environment..... I know I'm beating this, but I don't think many of you realize how big of an issue this is especially when wanting to evaluate any piece of gear, cables, and or speakers like you are going to attempt to do. You could do the same test at home with one of your speakers hooked up out of phase and likely get about the same results....

Rainman
Question: Do you know why turds are tapered on the ends? Answer: So your asshole doesn't slam shut..

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OconeeOrange

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Post Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:35 pm

Re: I hope I never lose my sense of humor.

Rainman wrote:I know I'm beating this, but I don't think many of you realize how big of an issue this is especially when wanting to evaluate any piece of gear, cables, and or speakers like you are going to attempt to do. You could do the same test at home with one of your speakers hooked up out of phase and likely get about the same results....

Rainman [/color]


Yea, some us do realize what you are saying.. Not me, because I have no good gear to place and am coming to learn.


Speaker Placement

There could be undreamed of performance lurking within your system, just waiting to be tapped! What's that you say, better sound than I have now? Most likely, yes. While some of you have been fastidious in your approach to speaker placement, the plain truth is that most of us do not know how (or do not take the time) to properly position our loudspeakers. I hope to help alleviate this situation with the information that follows.

To preface, let me say that an article on "correct" speaker placement may be impossible to write. That is because every situation (and, to a certain extent, every speaker) requires a different approach to optimization. Further, ones personal preference may suggest departure from the norm. Fortunately, there are some helpful guidelines that we can use to aid us in our quest for perfect sound.

The home environment presents a multitude of problems/considerations in choosing a location for our speakers. Room layout, furniture, aesthetics, accessibility by children and pets and, not to mention our sometimes contrary domestic cohabitant(s)! The ubiquitous Wife Appeal Factor (WAF) has become a most important gauge in making a decision. To keep things simple, we will concentrate upon the ideal, and assume you have unlimited freedom. Please alter the suggestions to conform to your situation.

To better understand the terminology and the reasoning behind the recommendations, let us first explore a few basics of acoustic theory.

The Room room affects the sound of a speaker by the reflections it causes. Some frequencies will be reinforced, others suppressed, thus altering the character of the sound. If we were to listen to our speakers outdoors (or inside an anechoic chamber), much of the coloration we’ve been used to hearing would disappear. This is a major reason loudspeaker designers test their creations in such an environment, not wanting their design decisions to be influenced by the colorations of any given room. The real world, however, requires that our speakers co-occupy our living quarters, therefore we must deal with the room as a significant contributing factor.

In any listening environment, what we hear is a result of a mixture of both the direct and reflected sounds. Direct sound travels straight to our ears from the speaker diaphragms. Reflected sounds are many, bouncing off most any hard surface and reaching our ears after the direct sound. In general, the direct sound from the speakers are primarily responsible for the image, while the reflected sounds contribute most to the tonality of the speaker (richness, leanness etc). Any boundary surface (back wall, side wall, floor) can cause a reflection, and all need to be considered during placement. The trick is to place the speaker (and/or treat the room) in a location that will take of advantage of the desirable reflections while diminishing the unwanted reflections.

On to specifics.

Distance to the listener. For proper imaging to take place, sound from each speaker must arrive at the listening position at precisely the same moment. This requires that the speakers be exactly the same distance away from the main seating position. We're talking about precision here. Difference of less than ¼" will be audible in better systems to careful listeners.

Using a tape measure for this procedure can be cumbersome, so I like to use a string. It's easy and very accurate. Simply tape a string to the midpoint of the listening chair, trying for a spot as close to ear level as possible. Now, unroll enough string to reach one of the speakers, then pull the string taught to a reference point on the speaker, I like to use the tweeter. Grasp that point on the string with your thumb and forefinger, then walk to the other speaker to see how it compares. Simply adjust the distance until each speaker is exactly the same distance.

Just to make things more confusing for you, I will add that there are times you may want the speakers to be at slightly different distances from the listener. This is mainly true when trying to compensate for a level imbalance cause by room acoustics or placement limitations. I always begin with the two speakers precisely the same distance, and change that only if absolutely mandatory.

Distance to side wall and back wall. There are two acoustic characteristics we're dealing with here: bass and soundstage. It's well known that the closer a speaker is to a boundary (wall, floor, ceiling) the more bass reinforcement . Changing the location in relation to these surfaces will dramatically affect both the quality and quantity of the bass. Note: moving the listening position can have as much affect on bass as moving the speaker. The speakers excite room modes which create low frequency standing waves. Because of their long wavelengths, these waves are present regardless of where the speakers are located. Moving the listening position however, determines whether that point is with relation to areas of additive or subtractive bass pressure. If you have the option, try moving the listening chair a foot or two in each direction to find the optimal position.

With regards to soundstaging, you'll find that depth is dramatically influenced by rear wall proximity. Increasing the distance from the speaker to the wall behind will increase soundstage depth. However, pulling the speaker too far out may degrade focus. In most cases, room layout dictates the maximum distance the speakers will be allowed to intrude into the space, but experiment to as a great degree as possible.

Most speakers need to be a minimum of a foot or two away from the side and back walls to reduce early reflections (early reflections reach the listener out of step with the direct sounds, causing image degradation). Distance to reflective surfaces, speaker radiation pattern and toe-in all contribute to the amount and intensity of early reflections. Minimizing these reflections is key to maximizing soundstage and focus. Beyond the scope of this article, check out Room Acoustics for a more in-depth look at early reflections and how then can be controlled using acoustic products from Acoustic Sciences and RPG.

Differences among speakers can also influence positioning. A planar, for instance (which radiates sound both front and back with null points to the sides - a figure-of-eight pattern), may be less critical of a nearby side wall, but very critical of the distance to the back-wall. Just the reverse is true for many dynamic designs whose propagation pattern is mainly to the front, with some to the sides and little to the rear (cardiod pattern).

You'll find that the side wall distance will affect both soundstaging and tonal balance. In general, proximity to the sidewall will more influence midrange balance while the distance to the back wall will have more impact on bass.

It is most important to insure that the distance to the back and side walls are unequal. Do not place the speaker, say, 20" from both back and side walls. That said, be sure both speakers are set the same; symmetry is very important. By that we mean if the left speaker is 20" from the back-wall and 30" from the side-wall, try to place the right speaker in the same way. This may not be possible in all situations, but do your best to give each speaker a similar acoustic environment.

Distance between the speakers will be determined by the distance to your listening position, the particular speaker you own and, to a great measure, your own personal preference. I generally prefer to start with an equilateral triangle, the apex of which is located at the listening position and the two speakers forming the base line (here, speakers placed 6' apart would suggest a listening position 6' away), and experiment to produce the best soundstage. Note: Some manufacturers recommend a specific measure for speaker separation. Use this measurement, if available and your room permits, but remember that any recommendation is only a starting point. You'll find that increasing the distance between the speakers will widen the soundstage (until, at some point the center image falls apart), decreasing the width will narrow the stage and increase center focus. As mentioned previously, this is partly subjective. I listen to a lot of female voice and a strong center focus is really important to me. You may concentrate of orchestral works and prefer a wider stage and be willing to sacrifice some specificity of image for the extra bloom. Select recordings with which you are very familiar. My personal preference is toward simple recordings with good, even spread across the stage and a strongly focused center image.

As discussed previously, the distance to the side walls affects (mainly midrange) tonal balance. As we move the speakers closer or further apart, the relationship to the side walls change. Further, the proximity of one speaker to the other will influence tonality as well.

Toe-in depends on three factors: the particular speaker you have chosen, the room and your personal preference. Some speakers sound best with little or no toe-in, others may require a great deal to perform properly. Follow the manufacturer's recommendations or, lacking those, start with no toe-in and begin turning the speaker inward (pointing more toward the listener) until the right amount of center-fill is obtained, without sacrificing soundstage width.

You can use the "string method" described in calibrating the distance to each speaker, but this time measuring to both the inside and outside corners of each speaker. However, far and away the best method for setting toe-in employs a laser pointer. You'll need a "target" for the laser, ideally something positioned at ear level. a pillow propped up in the listening chair or a point on the wall behind the listener can be used as reference points. Simply place the pointer on top of the speaker, making certain it's square to the front of the enclosure, and adjust toe-in until the laser focuses at exactly the same point on your target.

Adjust the position of the target itself to correlate with the speaker manufacturers recommendation for where the speaker output should intersect. Speakers requiring a large amount of toe-in will intersect at or just behind the listener, that point moves further back when less toe-in is indicated. Some manufacturers are adamant regarding the amount of toe-in, others are less specific in their recommendations. In general, more toe-in increases center focus, but reducing stage width. Less toe-in widens the stage, but center focus will be sacrificed if you go too far. Sometimes it's a balancing act based on the room, the speaker and the preference of the listener.

Note: Toe-in and distance between the speakers are often interrelated. You may find that it will be necessary to revisit the distance between your speakers after you have experimented with toe-in.

Tilt, (fore and aft) also can be very important in influencing the sound of a speaker. Although most speakers today should be level, some designs recommend specific tilt (generally rearward) for proper imaging. I recommend starting level, and experimenting rearward from there, if necessary. It's very rare that tilting the speaker forward will be of use. Use a carpenters level for accuracy, and remember to check both front to back and side to side.

Listening Height. Every speaker has been designed with a specific listening height in mind. Generally speaking, your ears should be on axis with a point midway between the tweeter and woofer (two-way) or tweeter and midrange (3 way). Again, consult the manual for specific recommendations.

Summation

*

Experimentation is the key to optimum results. Trial and error will tell you a great deal about how the speaker reacts in your environment and help you to better balance strengths and weaknesses of each position you try.
*

The goal in determining the position in the room is to excite as few of the standing waves as possible. A number of sources have suggested formulas to find rough placement. Here a couple I’ve seen. Where x is the distance from the side wall to the center of the speaker and y is the distance from the back wall to the center of the woofer. 1) x = (0.277) x (room width), y = (0.450) x (room width). If this puts the speakers too far out into the listening room use x = (0.277) x room width, y = (0.353) x room width. 2) x = (0.276) x (room width), y = (0.618) x (ceiling height).

*

Once you have found a rough position, place two pieces of masking tape on the floor, one marking distance to back wall, another noting positing from the side wall. Mark the tape in one-inch increments. This will allow you to move each speaker exactly the same amount, without having to re-measure each time.

*

Exact distances are critical! Always use a tape measure, half an inch can make all the difference in the world.
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Bear in mind that the best location for creating a spacious soundstage, may not be the ideal location for bass. We are searching for a balance, a compromise of parameters that comes closest to our personal definition of ideal.
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When setting up new speakers, don’t rush through the process. Take your time and slowly find the ideal location over a few weeks of listening. Pressing to find the right position can be very frustrating. Also note that the sound of the speakers will change during break-in. Play the speakers for at least 100 hours before fine tuning placement.
*

If you’ve already placed your speakers, but did not put much effort into the process, spend some time tweaking your speaker set-up. I think you’ll be very pleased with the results.


On my end, intend to bring a couple 5 gallon kegs of homemade beer and a few gallons of homemade wine. I can't do what you can, but I hope to help you clean up any muddy breaks (Jimmy Buffett song).

Damn we are going to have fun !!! \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/
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Zoot Horn

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Post Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:37 pm

Re: Anybody want a cable swap at the 'fest?

I'll show up early to get a choice seat for the extravaganza :D
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treitz3

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"Julian"
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Post Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:21 pm

Re: Anybody want a cable swap at the 'fest?

Mike, I do not think that anybody on this forum has an anechoic room built specifically to exacting dimensions that bring out the best of the speakers they own. Folks at the cabins all have an equally shitty acoustical environment. It's what we have.

Your living room isn't the best acoustical environment either, so I don't know where you are trying to go with this.
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to a good analogue reproduction.

Robert R. - "Did you see my North Korea analogy? I should have named it Carversite.kim"
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