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Anybody want a cable swap at the 'fest?

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Rainman

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Post Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:30 pm

Re: I hope I never lose my sense of humor.

OconeeOrange wrote:Yea, some us do realize what you are saying.. Not me, because I have no good gear to place and am coming to learn.

Speaker Placement

There could be undreamed of performance lurking within your system, just waiting to be tapped! What's that you say, better sound than I have now? Most likely, yes. While some of you have been fastidious in your approach to speaker placement, the plain truth is that most of us do not know how (or do not take the time) to properly position our loudspeakers.

To preface, let me say that an article on "correct" speaker placement may be impossible to write. We're talking about precision here. Difference of less than ¼" will be audible in better systems to careful listeners.

With regards to soundstaging, you'll find that depth is dramatically influenced by rear wall proximity. Increasing the distance from the speaker to the wall behind will increase soundstage depth.

You'll find that the side wall distance will affect both soundstaging and tonal balance. In general, proximity to the sidewall will more influence midrange balance while the distance to the back wall will have more impact on bass.

Distance between the speakers will be determined by the distance to your listening position, Some manufacturers recommend a specific measure for speaker separation. Use this measurement, if available and your room permits, but remember that any recommendation is only a starting point. You'll find that increasing the distance between the speakers will widen the soundstage (until, at some point the center image falls apart), decreasing the width will narrow the stage and increase center focus.

Toe-in depends on three factors: the particular speaker you have chosen, the room and your personal preference. Some speakers sound best with little or no toe-in, others may require a great deal to perform properly. Follow the manufacturer's recommendations or, lacking those, start with no toe-in and begin turning the speaker inward (pointing more toward the listener) until the right amount of center-fill is obtained, without sacrificing soundstage width.

Adjust the position of the target itself to correlate with the speaker manufacturers recommendation In general, more toe-in increases center focus, but reducing stage width. Less toe-in widens the stage, but center focus will be sacrificed if you go too far. Sometimes it's a balancing act based on the room, the speaker and the preference of the listener.

Exact distances are critical! Always use a tape measure, half an inch can make all the difference in the world.

Bear in mind that the best location for creating a spacious soundstage, may not be the ideal location for bass. We are searching for a balance, a compromise of parameters that comes closest to our personal definition of ideal.

When setting up new speakers, don’t rush through the process. Take your time and slowly find the ideal location over a few weeks of listening. Pressing to find the right position can be very frustrating. Also note that the sound of the speakers will change during break-in. Play the speakers for at least 100 hours before fine tuning placement.

If you’ve already placed your speakers, but did not put much effort into the process, spend some time tweaking your speaker set-up. I think you’ll be very pleased with the results.


Damn we are going to have fun !!! \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/


Glad you are wanting to learn! I cut, pasted, and re-colored some of the highlights of your post that I am praying will catch some peoples attention and encourage them to read the rest of your post!!! There is some great/critical info in here and some of what is in here are RULES not guidelines for getting what your speakers/system are actually capable of! If everyone took this to heart and did everything they possibly could to follow the rules and guidelines for proper set up I guarantee that the cable debate would no longer exist as a debate or argument. It would turn into a fun Q: and A: session with people asking about each others systems like how much higher the cymbals sound than the kick drum in Hotel California. I can not commend you enough for posting this! Hopefully because it was not originated by me it can be taken for being as important as the author says. Nicely Done!
=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>
Rainman
Question: Do you know why turds are tapered on the ends? Answer: So your asshole doesn't slam shut..

Carver- SDA490t, SDA450, 2 TFM45's, TFM15, CT23, CT28v, CT27v, Linn Kaber speakers, Sunfire crm2's, PS Audio Statement speaker cables and I/C's, A.P.C. power
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OconeeOrange

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Post Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:00 pm

Re: Anybody want a cable swap at the 'fest?

Sure, any time I stumble into helping anyone, it makes me giddy - :evil: :evil:

All here agree that I am an audio idiot, and I am OK with that.

So if one guy can show up and teach me cable choices as another teaches me speaker placement, etc -- I say bring it on.

I suspect if one comes to CarverFest with a closed mind and learns nothing --> I win!!!! #-o
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Rainman

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Post Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:15 pm

Re: Anybody want a cable swap at the 'fest?

treitz3 wrote:Folks at the cabins all have an equally shitty acoustical environment. It's what we have. Your living room isn't the best acoustical environment either, so I don't know where you are trying to go with this.


Where am I going with this? You answered most of your own question with the first sentence. If all of the gear is in a shitty acoustical environment why would you even want to attempt to fairly evaluate different pairs of cables? Just like I told you last year, I did not want to waste time trying to form an opinion of your system mostly because I knew I could not form the opinion that it deserves be it great or not. Why would I want to walk away with a shitty opinion of your system when I should/could walk away with a superb opinion of it if only I could hear it how Mr. Tyler would like me to? I wasn't going to do it.
As far as my listening room is concerned I think you would find me to be extremely lucky that it is actually asymmetrical as far as not being a square. The windows & treatments are in exactly the same place on the L and R sides as well as the peak in the ceiling is exactly centered over the speakers and listening chair. This is not my doing by any means, it's all pure luck. Don't get me wrong it was not a plop the speakers down and go deal! Thanks to my friend Jeff and much tolerance from my wife we were able to spend the time needed to get it as close to right as possible. I can tell you that it is so close you can open one of the window treatments a mere 10 inches and it totally changes the sound stage on the side that is opened (no B.S. ask Rainwoman & Dyeraudio.) Another thing you will note is you can swap a pair of cables with someone in the NEXT ROOM totally blind as to what you have done if anything at all and they will hear a difference from there! I promise you this is not B.S. and will prove it to you if you are willing to take me up on it. Why do you think I was trying to get you up here for so long??? So you could hear and see it for yourself!!! Get a plane ticket up here and we can swap 2 pairs of YOUR own cables and guaranteed you will hear a huge difference from the next room. (you will not only hear it you will feel it in the floor!) If you are not left totally speechless with your mouth hanging open I will pay your flight BOTH WAYS and never ever say another word about set up or cables! The only reason I know anything about any of this set up stuff is because I am lucky enough to have learned the set up stuff from someone who has done it all in that area, for example we spent 8 hours doing the tilt and overall placement of the a/d/s dash speakers in his pickup truck. At the time I thought it was the most stupid thing I had ever seen! However when it was done I was shocked to discover his truck has a better sound stage than any home rig I have ever heard! (again no B.S. ask Rainwoman) From that moment forward I paid attention when he talked and I managed to learn a little along the way. If you take my offer I don't care if our system sounds good, bad, or awful to you because you will be so shocked to actually be able to distinctly tell any differences between 5 or 10 sets of cables you will do flips. I also want to see the look on your face when you discover how much 1/2 and inch can change the sound stage when you are fortunate enough to have one that is about as close to right as you will hear. Notice I am not making any claims about the other characteristics of our system I want you to do that for yourself when you hear it how it should be heard. Even though I am sure you will not dislike the rest of it, sat the end of the day how good the other sound characteristics are to you are not important for the purpose at hand.

B.T.W... You still need to call me Tom....

Rainman
Question: Do you know why turds are tapered on the ends? Answer: So your asshole doesn't slam shut..

Carver- SDA490t, SDA450, 2 TFM45's, TFM15, CT23, CT28v, CT27v, Linn Kaber speakers, Sunfire crm2's, PS Audio Statement speaker cables and I/C's, A.P.C. power
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treitz3

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Post Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:19 pm

Re: Anybody want a cable swap at the 'fest?

OconeeOrange wrote:All here agree that I am an audio idiot, and I am OK with that.
I wouldn't say that, Bill. You are just at a different point in your own personal audio journey. Some on here are way behind you and some are way ahead of you. Point is, everybody who has gone further in their audio journey than you, had to be where you are at now at some point along their own personal audio journey.

At least you are willing to learn and show some genuine interest in learning. That's a good thing. More than I can say for some folks who have come and gone on this forum over the years.
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to a good analogue reproduction.

Robert R. - "Did you see my North Korea analogy? I should have named it Carversite.kim"
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OconeeOrange

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Post Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:29 pm

Re: Anybody want a cable swap at the 'fest?

Rainman wrote:
Rainman[/color]


Very good post.
You are good with words.
This is much better than quoting others (like PSAudio/Lynn).

OO
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Rainman

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Post Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:56 pm

Re: Anybody want a cable swap at the 'fest?

OconeeOrange wrote: All here agree that I am an audio idiot, and I am OK with that.
I suspect if one comes to CarverFest with a closed mind and learns nothing --> I win!!!! #-o


I disagree with your idiot sentence, because you know when open minded you have resources which you can take questions to and learn from just like I do...... I am extremely lucky to have learned the small amount that I have from individuals who are some of the best one could possibly learn from having amazing real world knowledge along with credentials to match. If it wasn't for resources I would still be worse off than all of you, continuing along with speakers 20 feet apart, hooked up out of phase, 1 flat against the wall and the other 5 feet away, and all the while needing to buy a clue.... Use your resources, be sure to thank them and you will likely have so much fun learning you won't even realize how much you have learned...

Rainman
Question: Do you know why turds are tapered on the ends? Answer: So your asshole doesn't slam shut..

Carver- SDA490t, SDA450, 2 TFM45's, TFM15, CT23, CT28v, CT27v, Linn Kaber speakers, Sunfire crm2's, PS Audio Statement speaker cables and I/C's, A.P.C. power
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kingman

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Post Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:17 am

Re: Anybody want a cable swap at the 'fest?

treitz3 wrote:
OconeeOrange wrote:All here agree that I am an audio idiot, and I am OK with that.
I wouldn't say that, Bill. You are just at a different point in your own personal audio journey. Some on here are way behind you and some are way ahead of you. Point is, everybody who has gone further in their audio journey than you, had to be where you are at now at some point along their own personal audio journey.

At least you are willing to learn and show some genuine interest in learning. That's a good thing. More than I can say for some folks who have come and gone on this forum over the years.

=D> =D> =D>
In reality, it only matters what it sounds like to YOU!!!
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TNRabbit

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Post Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:11 am

Re: Anybody want a cable swap at the 'fest?

m
Mike, if speaker and listener positioning are so important, how is it the person in another room can hear the difference? :lol:
TNRabbit
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OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

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Don

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Post Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:10 pm

Re: Anybody want a cable swap at the 'fest?

TNRabbit wrote:m
Mike, if speaker and listener positioning are so important, how is it the person in another room can hear the difference? :lol:



Silly Wabbit,

Didn't you read the post where you can also feel the difference in bass output! :lol:
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.
— Thomas Paine


"Try not to become a man of success, but rather a man of value" Albert Einstein

"Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and then campaign against them". Charlie Reese

"The problems we face today exist because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living." Brad Shurett


"Kindness is a language that the Deaf can hear and the Blind can see." Mark Twain

RIP Bill D.
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OconeeOrange

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Post Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:32 pm

Re: Anybody want a cable swap at the 'fest?

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Don

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Post Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:03 pm

Re: Anybody want a cable swap at the 'fest?

OO,

That's what we need at Carverfest to address cabin acoustic issues! :-k \:D/ You are bringing a set for each cabin, aren't you? :lol: I believe there are 12 cabins. :-k Don't worry about the treehouses. Audio systems are not allowed there. :lol:
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.
— Thomas Paine


"Try not to become a man of success, but rather a man of value" Albert Einstein

"Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and then campaign against them". Charlie Reese

"The problems we face today exist because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living." Brad Shurett


"Kindness is a language that the Deaf can hear and the Blind can see." Mark Twain

RIP Bill D.
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Rainman

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Post Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:33 pm

Re: Anybody want a cable swap at the 'fest?

TNRabbit wrote:m
Mike, if speaker and listener positioning are so important, how is it the person in another room can hear the difference? :lol:



in my luck with placement I managed to get the right... how about we just have Rainwoman explain it to you.... She heard and felt it first and couldn't believe it so she instantly told myself and Dyeraudio about it. He also heard it and felt it so he can verify this event. If I didn't have credible witnesses in this case I would never share that...

If you happened to see my offer/challenge to Tom about any cables of your choice to our listening room over the cost of air fare to fly both ways, I would like to extend this challenge to you as well Gary.....I can assure you that you will be so shocked at the different music different cables can play you will be re-thinking everything in the set up and cables dept. (no claims made as to one is better than another only that the music will be different) Gary I will buy your airfare if you can't hear/feel it from the next room. It's time someone put up proof that you can change things with changing cables so you and Tom are the first two I am offering proof to at the risk of money where the mouth is.

Rainman
Question: Do you know why turds are tapered on the ends? Answer: So your asshole doesn't slam shut..

Carver- SDA490t, SDA450, 2 TFM45's, TFM15, CT23, CT28v, CT27v, Linn Kaber speakers, Sunfire crm2's, PS Audio Statement speaker cables and I/C's, A.P.C. power
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treitz3

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Post Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:48 pm

Re: Anybody want a cable swap at the 'fest?

Mike, I have already experienced that with my own system. Nothing really new here. Sound stage and imaging aside, you can hear the difference....as well as feel it with a full range system. Sometimes one IC is all it takes, I know. :-s

That's why I'm hosting the whole cable swap thing. To let others learn what they can in a real life scenario and not an anechoic room. We'll do PC's, IC's and if we have enough.....SC's as well. I've already got the plan down, just need to get there and do it. I'll let folks who attend the swap offer their own observations. I think it will be interesting and a learning experience for all.

Good luck addressing the acoustic issues at Carverfest......or any other audio gathering for that matter. It is what it is.

Oh, and Bill? A simple plant can do the same thing as that $400.00 contraption you posted.
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to a good analogue reproduction.

Robert R. - "Did you see my North Korea analogy? I should have named it Carversite.kim"
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Rainman

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Post Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:32 am

Re: Anybody want a cable swap at the 'fest?

Do you think these will help? :-k
Rainman
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Question: Do you know why turds are tapered on the ends? Answer: So your asshole doesn't slam shut..

Carver- SDA490t, SDA450, 2 TFM45's, TFM15, CT23, CT28v, CT27v, Linn Kaber speakers, Sunfire crm2's, PS Audio Statement speaker cables and I/C's, A.P.C. power
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Toy Maker

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Post Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:49 am

Re: Anybody want a cable swap at the 'fest?

You guys are dip-shits... It makes NO DIFFERENCE what cables you use...
as long as you have your "Brilliant Pebbles" in the right spot !!!
GOD... such idiots ](*,)

http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina31.htm
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‎~You think Einstein walked around thinkin' everyone was a bunch of dumb shits?~

SHUT UP AND ENJOY THE MUSIC!
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