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Ripped Audio vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!

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Toy Maker

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Post Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:16 pm

Ripped Audio vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!

Oooo It's on this year !!!

I just downloaded and installed "Exact Audio Copy" and this program kicks ass !!!
http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/en/

I just ran a couple tests....
I'm running a Dell 630i 3.2 Quad-core with 8gb of memory on Vista 64
Winamp PRO and am listening to the CD and the raw WAV file that EAC just made....
I can't hear single damn difference between the CD and WAV. file.

I'm using $300 Sennheiser headphones too, so the "sysyem" as nothing to do with this test.
The WAV file and CD are all going through the exact same output devices...

I'm pretty sure you are doomed this time around Tom.

EAC Review: http://www.afterdawn.com/news/article.c ... _just_hype

The test and rules will be easy:
I'll rip any "redbook" CD or CD's you want. We will play both the CD and WAV files back through the same device using a single DAC (hopefully a transporter if all goes well, if not, the AVP's DAC)... via optical cable into my Proceed Preamp, and into any amps, and speakers you choose.

List of equipemnt:
PC server - WiFi/router - Transporter: all connected via Ethernet cables
Transporter - CDP - Proceed Pramp: connected via optic cables

We will still need a high end CD player with an optical output from someone at the fest
Whatever you do in life will be insignificant, but it's very important that you do it... because nobody else will.

‎~You think Einstein walked around thinkin' everyone was a bunch of dumb shits?~

SHUT UP AND ENJOY THE MUSIC!
╭∩╮(︶︿︶)╭∩╮
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treitz3

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Post Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:24 pm

Tom here....

Toy Maker wrote:Oooo It's on this year !!! I'm pretty sure you are doomed this time around Tom.
Hehe....I got a chuckle out of this. "Pretty sure"? :lol: If it's an exact audio copy, then I shouldn't be able to tell. It is, after all, an exact copy.

You have to know that I'm laughing as I type this, James. I'm getting a pretty big kick out of this.

Bring it on, baby! =D> =D> =D>
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to a good analogue reproduction.

Robert R. - "Did you see my North Korea analogy? I should have named it Carversite.kim"
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Toy Maker

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Post Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:14 pm

Re: Ripped Audio vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet

Guess we'll have to make some "rules"...
Like how are we going to DO the test.. ??

Listen to a track so many times, and each time, jot down which source you think it is ??
Or, just tell us which one "sounds better" A or B....
I'd say you'd have to be right 90% of the time or better to win ??

Start throwing out ideas, and we can hash them out.
Whatever you do in life will be insignificant, but it's very important that you do it... because nobody else will.

‎~You think Einstein walked around thinkin' everyone was a bunch of dumb shits?~

SHUT UP AND ENJOY THE MUSIC!
╭∩╮(︶︿︶)╭∩╮
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OconeeOrange

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Post Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:18 pm

Re: Ripped Audio vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet

Toy Maker wrote:Oooo It's on this year !!!

I just downloaded and installed "Exact Audio Copy" and this program kicks ass !!!
http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/en/

I just ran a couple tests....
I'm running a Dell 630i 3.2 Quad-core with 8gb of memory on Vista 64
Winamp PRO and am listening to the CD and the raw WAV file that EAC just made....
I can't hear single damn difference between the CD and WAV. file.

I'm using $300 Sennheiser headphones too, so the "sysyem" as nothing to do with this test.
The WAV file and CD are all going through the exact same output devices...

I'm pretty sure you are doomed this time around Tom.

EAC Review: http://www.afterdawn.com/news/article.c ... _just_hype

The test and rules will be easy:
I'll rip any "redbook" CD or CD's you want. We will play both the CD and WAV files back through the same device using a single DAC (hopefully a transporter if all goes well, if not, the AVP's DAC)... via optical cable into my Proceed Preamp, and into any amps, and speakers you choose.

List of equipemnt:
PC server - WiFi/router - Transporter: all connected via Ethernet cables
Transporter - CDP - Proceed Pramp: connected via optic cables

We will still need a high end CD player with an optical output from someone at the fest





This is all wrong --- ](*,)


We will still need a high end CD player with an optical output from someone at the fest


A test between files and equipment are different, and you are combining the two. ](*,)

===========================================

Yea, EAC is great, but I am not sure it is better than some others, but is free.
It is a little harder to use for perfect copies if you are a newbie, but most who hunt it down are not "new" to computer audio.

I can't see where WinAmp Pro is any better at perfect play back than the free versions.
Some use WinAmp Lite, but I don't see a reason for that either. I have played with most players out there, and WinAmp is very good when set up right for transparent playback. FooBar 2000 is good too.

Lots of memory is good. =D> Having that and the ability to use it is why some older high end CD players bite donkey ass.
Higher CPU adds heat (fans), and music playback needs very little CPU power.
Most believe Vista has a big gut and Window XP and Windows 7 do a better job with high end audio, but I don't know that. I do know these days you can upgrade to Windows 7 for a hundred bucks and be happy Vista is history for you. =D>

As to the rest --

Well you need to decide if you are testing CD files against Hard drive files, or YOUR computer against someone's CD player. It is not the same thing as one might be way better than the other. That gets back to the DAC and a lot of other things that $$ even out.

A completely fair test of a CD file or a Hard Drive file would have to played completely through the same equipment. I keep writing this, "all things reading digital files are computers", but people don't read that or refuse to admit it.

A fair test would be using something like my high end home made music player.
It plays CDs and Hard drive files equally well.
We run "ALL" music out through my expensive DAC.

The same everything will be used except for file source.
One will be ripped and one will not be.

Changing between the two, even in mid-song is easy.
They will sound the same or different, but equipment will not be an issue.
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OconeeOrange

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Post Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:31 pm

Re: Ripped Audio vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet

Toy Maker wrote:Guess we'll have to make some "rules"...

Start throwing out ideas, and we can hash them out.



If you are going to use different equipment for different files, I bet SpeakerLabFan can show up with his:
Manley Stingray
Pro-ject Tube Box SE II
Rega P3, Benz Micro Ace
and a LP of the CD---

and put out music most there will prefer. :rolleyes:

Are you having a test of formats or equipment?
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Toy Maker

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Post Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:42 pm

Re: Ripped Audio vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet

I think you are misunderstanding the test... or at least the equipment being used...

The PC will do nothing but RIP the CDs...
The ripped music files will be placed on our ACER Home Sever.
The files will be played back via Logitech Transporter

Both the Transporter and CDP can ONLY BE CONNECTED VIA OPTIC OR DIGITAL connections,
and BOTH have to be connected to the Preamp using the SAME cable, or 2 of the same cables.

Both the CDp and the Transporter must be putting out Digital data ONLY. (eliminating the hardware analog outputs from the test)
"unless" we choose to use the DAC in the Transporter, as it has digital inputs we can connect the CDp outputs to.

So in the end, we decide if we are going to use the DAC in the Preamp, or the DAC in the Transporter, either way, all data goes through a single DAC
eliminating all and any differences between the sources, and relying on a single DAC to convert both signals the same way.

The goal is to have 2 digital source signals being converted by a single DAC.

I am betting this is where Tom will have trouble. He is used to listening to the "CD Player" it self, which like every other piece of equipment has been "voiced"
If that were not the case... every CDP would have only digital outputs. Look at the 390t, it has tubes to help "voice" the CDp..
exactly what we DON'T want for a true test.

Now that I am thinking about it... We won't need a Preamp... If we rely on the high end DAC in the Transporter, we can go directly to an amp with it.
It will act as a preamp, with the DAC built in... We should be able to switch between the digital CD input and the PC data all-in-one.
I will have to go read the manual, and double check that.
Whatever you do in life will be insignificant, but it's very important that you do it... because nobody else will.

‎~You think Einstein walked around thinkin' everyone was a bunch of dumb shits?~

SHUT UP AND ENJOY THE MUSIC!
╭∩╮(︶︿︶)╭∩╮
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OconeeOrange

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Post Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: Ripped Audio vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet

So in the end, we decide if we are going to use the DAC in the Preamp, or the DAC in the Transporter, either way, all data goes through a single DAC
eliminating all and any differences between the sources, and relying on a single DAC to convert both signals the same way.
]

No, you are still testing equipment, not files.

That is a good test too, but label it for what it is --

Your stuff playing ripped files against some one's stuff playing CDs.

We need a fair judge to call the test what it is.

- how about BillD and Elgrau.
They have logical minds on rare occasions. :lol:
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Toy Maker

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Post Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:53 pm

Re: Ripped Audio vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet

"Using Transporter as a Standalone DAC
You can use Transporter as a standalone digital-to-analog converter (DAC) to convert S/PDIF
or AES/EBU signals from a CD player or other digital source to analog for connection to an
amplifi er or preamp.
When not connected to SlimServer or SqueezeNetwork (you will see Transporter Setup
on the top line of the display), use the remote control or knob to scroll to the digital input
you’d like to use then press the right arrow button, the center of the knob or the PLAY
button. That input will remain selected until you choose another or connect to SlimServer
or SqueezeNetwork.
If Transporter is connected to SlimServer or SqueezeNetwork, scroll to the Digital Inputs
menu, go right, then press PLAY to use the selected input."

I'm not sure this will be the best way to go, as switching back and forth will be slow, and you will be able to tell which source it's on.
If this were a setup at home, not an issue, but for a blind-test, not so much.

So using a GOOD preamp with dual digital inputs will be best ( i think )
Whatever you do in life will be insignificant, but it's very important that you do it... because nobody else will.

‎~You think Einstein walked around thinkin' everyone was a bunch of dumb shits?~

SHUT UP AND ENJOY THE MUSIC!
╭∩╮(︶︿︶)╭∩╮
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Toy Maker

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Post Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:04 pm

Re: Ripped Audio vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet

OconeeOrange wrote:No, you are still testing equipment, not files.
That is a good test too, but label it for what it is --
Your stuff playing ripped files against some one's stuff playing CDs.
We need a fair judge to call the test what it is.
- how about BillD and Elgrau.
They have logical minds on rare occasions. :lol:



I don't agree...

2 different Digital signal sources being converted by a single DAC...
Or
Your CD-Rom and Hard-Drive going into a single DAC...

What's the difference?

Raw digital data out of the CDp, Transporter, CD-Rom, or HDD... It should all be the same Digital Data, no ??
Whatever you do in life will be insignificant, but it's very important that you do it... because nobody else will.

‎~You think Einstein walked around thinkin' everyone was a bunch of dumb shits?~

SHUT UP AND ENJOY THE MUSIC!
╭∩╮(︶︿︶)╭∩╮
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BillD

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Post Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:22 pm

Re: Ripped Audio vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet

You need to have digital output from the CD player and the computer go through the same DAC. So, say you had a USB DAC (like a Benchmark). You could put the computer in the USB input and the digital output from the DAC in through the coax (or optical which I wouldn't recommend) input. These have to feed the same preamp/amplifier/speakers. The only ICs you have that are different are the USB cable for the computer and the coax for the player. The signals are all digital until the DAC. You simply switch sources at the preamp or DAC. Level control is very important, but should not be done in the computer or the player. It will have to be done at the preamp between each switch (i.e., in the analog domain — no digital volume control for risk of tainting the test). The best solution are adjustable in-line attenuators (little wheel potentiometers) if the DAC has multiple analog outputs, between the DAC and the preamp, so the preamp volume need not be touched. However, this introduces another variable. Unless the pots are identical, it will probably be better (and cheaper) just to mark the adjustments on the preamp for each source, and switch the volume with each source change.
It should sound like it isn't there!
There is a difference between hearing and listening...
Making life enjoyable through expensive electronics.
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Carver: C-4000 & C-1 preamps, PSC-60 preamp/tuner, TX-11a tuner, M-400 (2), C-500, M-500, M-500t, M-500t Mk.II, A-500x, AL-III loudspeakers (2 pr.)
Sunfire:Theater Grand III processor, Ultimate Receiver, Cinema Grand Signature 400 ~ seven, True Subwoofer Mk. II, D-10 Subwoofer
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OconeeOrange

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Post Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:34 pm

Re: Ripped Audio vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet

My BenchMark is a Pre and an a DAC.
Like BillD said, hook in both and all you need do is turn the dial a notch to switch between the two as they play at the same time.

To me that is still testing a CD player against a computer, but it is better.

My "thingy" plays both CDs and computer files at a high end level, but ](*,)

At CABIN 5 we will do it my way.
DAVEs will be the judge and have the final word --
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Eddie

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Post Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:37 pm

Re: Ripped Audio vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet

James use the D1500 and run it threw it, and see if there is a difference!
Good judgment comes from experience,but experience usually comes from bad judgment.

The best thing is to learn from others that have mastered the one thing you need to learn!

I would tell you to go to hell but I already work there and I don't want to see your ugly face every day!
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treitz3

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Post Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:41 pm

Rules....

James, the only rule that should be put in place is that you get the test right :D . I'll let you guys hash that out, just make sure that you don't leave this year with an excuse that it wasn't a legit test. If I can hear a difference between the two [Original and Lossless or EAC], then that's all that matters. If I can detect it once, I can detect it all of the time.

Last year was a bit obvious to me as to the change between the two criteria [DAC's]. This year may be closer, who knows? I'm not saying that I would be able to detect the change or difference within 15 seconds, I might have to listen to both in their entirety a couple of times. I honestly don't know. We'll just have to see on that.

Just tell Alex that I will not be able to tell you which one is which at the beginning of the test. How in the hell am I supposed to know that on a system I am unfamiliar with? Now, if I can detect a difference and you tell me which one is playing [copy or original] at the time I ask? Then I can tell you which one is the copy and which one is the original from that point on. Not before. Of course, all of this is dependent on whether or not there is a detectable change.

You know, it's funny. All of this brew-ha-ha started years ago when I was having an online conversation with Rick [Mr. M500-t on this forum] and I had mentioned that I hadn't heard a copy that sounded as good as the original. Well, to date, I still have not. It will be interesting [the results, that is] to see what the outcome is this year.

IF you get the test right. 8)
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to a good analogue reproduction.

Robert R. - "Did you see my North Korea analogy? I should have named it Carversite.kim"
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BillD

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Post Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:42 pm

Re: Ripped Audio vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet

Well, because it's all digital until you get to the DAC, you are testing the ability of the computer or player to faithfully retrieve the data, which is what the sound difference is all about. And, if the music on the computer is some form of "lossless" compression, you can also prove that there is no difference with that, either.
It should sound like it isn't there!
There is a difference between hearing and listening...
Making life enjoyable through expensive electronics.
_________________
Carver: C-4000 & C-1 preamps, PSC-60 preamp/tuner, TX-11a tuner, M-400 (2), C-500, M-500, M-500t, M-500t Mk.II, A-500x, AL-III loudspeakers (2 pr.)
Sunfire:Theater Grand III processor, Ultimate Receiver, Cinema Grand Signature 400 ~ seven, True Subwoofer Mk. II, D-10 Subwoofer
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OconeeOrange

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Post Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:52 pm

Re: Rules....

treitz3 wrote: All of this brew-ha-ha
IF you get the test right. 8)


That is a term used by us home beer brewers.
We get together and compare it all.
Mostly all show up with great beer.

I suspect at the end of any audio test, all will agree that it all sounds good.

Lets do like the happy beer guys, and keep this all fun as any difference we discover or miss will not mean much when I put on THE TAMS on any system --- :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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