Help troubleshooting CF amps.....

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Re: Help troubleshooting CF amps.....

Post by TNRabbit » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:57 pm

Digikey doesn't even show 1n5399 ......?
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Re: Help troubleshooting CF amps.....

Post by mbskeam » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:10 pm

http://www.futurlec.com/Diodes/1N5399.shtml

1N5399 1000V 1.5A General Purpose Diode
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Re: Help troubleshooting CF amps.....

Post by radioeng2 » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:34 pm

Wow!!! Please forgive as I'm just browsing while on the phone with a tech...

But Zener diodes are not general purpose diodes!!! Zeners have a set voltage that they turn on at. If this is in the bias then the whole purpose there is to have a certain voltage. Was it two 15v originally? To be 30? Can't remember....

Again forgive if I'm missing something....


Mark

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Busy...busy...and haven't been here to help out, sorry Gary!
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Re: Help troubleshooting CF amps.....

Post by TNRabbit » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:23 pm

Mark; pan up this thread. These are the diodes on the incoming power from the cap/transformer.
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OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

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Re: Help troubleshooting CF amps.....

Post by radioeng2 » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:48 pm

Ok Gary. Sorry I didn't have time to read too far or careful. Just didn't want any rectifier diodes in the bias supply and I thought that's what I was seeing going on.

But if you're going to buy any rectifier stage diodes, then don't buy generic ones. Absolutely, positively you want to put in some better ones. They are not significantly more and are significant for audio quality. I promised to get some numbers and haven't had time to do so or get back here. But we want to get the right number for some MUR diodes to go in there! Believe me...diodes make a diff!!

I'll try to do this tonight if I ever get outta work here!

Mark
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Re: Help troubleshooting CF amps.....

Post by radioeng2 » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:43 pm

The basics of the rectifier diodes goes like this.

The full wave bridge configuration used in the CF amp means each diode is on opposite sides of the power transformer secondary. Refer to the schematic and you can see them being fed by the power transformer secondary. So they are seeing the same voltage waveform...but 180 degrees phase difference!

So on one side as one is going more positive, the other is going more negative. Diodes turn on as it goes positive and shut off as the waveform goes negative. Only conducting as it goes one direction and blocks the other way. So as the waveform is summed together, you get a waveform at twice the 60hz cycle (120hz) and the waveform only goes positive and back to zero volt line instead of the above and below as comes out of the transformer.

The big deal is the turn on and off of the diode. The situation is complicated badly by the fact that the capacitor that follows presents a heavy suck to pull current needed to top it off and the impedance varies during the cycle. The current pull waveform is highly distorted and is spiky and nasty! Metering voltage reveals little about what's going on with the current at that point. If I had time, I'd dig up some waveforms and the pictures tell this story much better than my words.

This current pull nasties carry on to some lessening degree into and even through the power supply depending on many factors. The wire size, quality of connections and all the impedances involved between the elements. Where and how good grounds are done make big differences.

Another thing...those sharp spikes of current make high frequency waveforms and this can result in radiated energy around the diodes too. So the way diodes turn on and off can wind up effecting the radiated energy and the resulting power flow. There are a number of different diode designs and some level of differences can be observed in the audio that comes from modulating these supplies with the audio that we much want to come through so perfectly.


To turn to real life stories to relate the rubber meets the road part of this...

I've heard different brands of same model tube rectifiers sound different switching them in the same amp!

I have the several of the same basic amp, EL84 amps btw, that have variations in a few things but one of the big ones is tube rectifier versus SS. Tubes always have that tube ease of presentation!

I have a friend that spent much time and money on investigating sonic differences in (ta-da!!!) rectifier diodes in a tube preamp! He socketed the rectifier stage so different ones could be dropped in pretty quickly. He tried different specific styles of diodes and also different configurations all the way up to and including hybrid tube and SS full wave bridges. After much time on this project, he came away with favorites, but certainly the overiding story is they all are somewhat different.

You can spend higher dollars on some of them and others not so much. But fast and soft turn on\off is worth doing most certainly. Simply less of the traditional solid state hardness and more liquid naturalness to put it simply.


Better than ordinary rectifier...
http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/106807 ... 100eg.html

Pretty good diode...
http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/415556 ... 2-10a.html

And a really good one...
http://www.partsconnexion.com/product7564.html

Hope you can follow the story line and how this simple change can matter in your amp!

Mark
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Re: Help troubleshooting CF amps.....

Post by TNRabbit » Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:17 pm

Thanks for the info, Mark! In the three you referenced, the first is like the ones used in the CF tube amps; the other two are different....?

Robin, looks like I'll need to replace those in the two amps I brought to you last week~
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OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

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Re: Help troubleshooting CF amps.....

Post by tinpan » Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:28 am

Robin, looks like I'll need to replace those in the two amps I brought to you last week~
Not a problem, do we need one per amp or 2 per amp?
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Re: Help troubleshooting CF amps.....

Post by Zoot Horn » Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:07 am

Keep it coming Mark,, this is the kinda stuff I need to know/learn.A sincere thank you for sharing. =D>

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Re: Help troubleshooting CF amps.....

Post by tinpan » Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:36 am

Keep it coming Mark,, this is the kinda stuff I need to know/learn.A sincere thank you for sharing. =D>
Amen to that, thank you very much.
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Re: Help troubleshooting CF amps.....

Post by TNRabbit » Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:33 am

tinpan wrote:
Robin, looks like I'll need to replace those in the two amps I brought to you last week~
Not a problem, do we need one per amp or 2 per amp?

Two per amp, but let's order 10 in case I screw up along the way~

1 10 MUR4100EGOS-ND DIODE ULTRA FAST 4A 1KV DO-201AD 0 0.65200 $6.52 + shipping
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OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

RIP WIlliam B. Dibble, 1948-2012. I'll miss you my friend.

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Re: Help troubleshooting CF amps.....

Post by tinpan » Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:33 pm

How about 10 of the second one. I'll order them and have them ship to your house. When is your trip again?
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Re: Help troubleshooting CF amps.....

Post by TNRabbit » Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:27 pm

tinpan wrote:
How about 10 of the second one. I'll order them and have them ship to your house. When is your trip again?
Departing a day later than thought; leaving first thing in the morning. Won't be back until the 19th.
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From FrankieD's lips to your ears: Sunfire - a quiet box of endless power.

Sunfire TG-IV/400~7 Amp
Carver SD/A-360 CDP
Benchmark DAC-1
Sony SACD/DVD-A
Active bi-amp: Ashly XR-1001 & 2 Rane PEQ-15s
Main: HotRodded AL-IIIs
Sub: Klipsch RT-12d
Center: Sunfire CRS-3c
Surround: Sunfire CRS-3 (x 2)

OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

RIP WIlliam B. Dibble, 1948-2012. I'll miss you my friend.

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Re: Help troubleshooting CF amps.....

Post by engtaz » Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:57 am

Have a great time.
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Re: Help troubleshooting CF amps.....

Post by TNRabbit » Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:51 am

tinpan wrote:
How about 10 of the second one. I'll order them and have them ship to your house. When is your trip again?
Got the rectifier diodes in today; they don't look anything like the pics on Digikey, but the papers show the same specs:

Image

Sound good on this video (amp #3):

Image

But now I have a problem with amps 3 & 4; individually, they both sound great & very quiet. When I plug the input for right channel into one & input for left channel into the other one, I get a terrible ground loop hum. I've been through every single connection; no bad solder joints or grounds. It even does this when one amp is OFF, but goes away if you UNPLUG one of them. This happens whether the input is plugged into my Zune player or not. Here's a video:

Image

Any ideas?
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From FrankieD's lips to your ears: Sunfire - a quiet box of endless power.

Sunfire TG-IV/400~7 Amp
Carver SD/A-360 CDP
Benchmark DAC-1
Sony SACD/DVD-A
Active bi-amp: Ashly XR-1001 & 2 Rane PEQ-15s
Main: HotRodded AL-IIIs
Sub: Klipsch RT-12d
Center: Sunfire CRS-3c
Surround: Sunfire CRS-3 (x 2)

OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

RIP WIlliam B. Dibble, 1948-2012. I'll miss you my friend.

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