Sonorous Speakers Done - Now A Question

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B-Man
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Sonorous Speakers Done - Now A Question

Post by B-Man » Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:57 am

1st off, my hat is off to James, Bob, RobertR, Alex and any others responsible for the production of these gems !!! This was a truly awesome project and a real good way to celebrate my 1st trip to CarverFest. Meeting Bob was icing on the cake !! James, RobertR and Alex were very friendly and made me feel right at home. I will definitely attend next year's event...

With that said, I finished my 2nd pair last night. I am going to look for a different sub to go with the 2nd pair. I am using a True Signature with the first pair and there is too much upper bass info missing.

I have played with the phase, level and x-over points but it just doesn't quite get there.

Any suggestions ??

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Re: Sonorous Speakers Done - Now A Question

Post by Robert R » Sat Oct 03, 2015 7:31 am

I notice you didn't mention any experimentation with the placement of the sub. That might be a good next step. If it is in a place that augments the lowest material (e.g. a corner), you can't turn it up enough to fill in the higher stuff.

Rooms are awfully tricky in the bass end of the spectrum. Placing the sub between the Teslas (but not necessarily centered) can work very well.

Bob showed us how the phase cancellation of just a narrow frequency band can be interpreted as a lack of upper base, as you lose that one note you were expecting to hear. Sitting exactly in your listening position, run a generator on a downward sweep from, say, 200 Hz to 80 Hz and listen for any holes in your response curve. If you find one, mess with the phase control again, or move the sub a bit, and re-test.

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Re: Sonorous Speakers Done - Now A Question

Post by radioeng2 » Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:10 am

This might be a good place to talk about the low end stuff. Might or might not be involved with your situation.

"Sub-woofer" behavior is the filling in information below what a full range speaker can do. Many speakers do well down to the mid 40's or a little lower but then can use a helping hand for lower. That's the traditional "sub" area. Popularized for the movie effects augmentation...the leap out and shake the room suddenly type of thing.

This has over time turned into doing more and more as the female drive to miniaturize speakers to not exist has gained momentum. This desire to make your speakers (and manhood) disappear has resulted in more and more need to have bass support up into the real bass region.

As you need additional bass from a seperate woofer higher and higher, you quickly start running into hearing sound from seperate sources. My long term playing has led me to believe that once you get above about 75hz, you start hearing where the sound comes from. IE...you're getting into territory where more than a "sub" is needed and it's more a need to have a pair of true "woofers".

Augmenting higher gets into two things playing against each other in a big way. One is the room and it's effect and the other is the crossover slope between them.

The room size determines at what frequency you have a primary lower frequency mode. Think of it as a big eq function at a narrow band bumping through the roof the level. But there is a secondary issue from that of it's second harmonic! This one is less prevalent but can really be a big player in some rooms! It's somewhat typical to have the main room mode to be in the 65-85hz area and then have that double that number be the one that up into the much more audible area and yet get ignored. Too low to be able to be touched by normal room absorbant materials, high enough to be into a lot of bass material!

So a desirable situation is if your main speaker run down to just the main room mode freq. As they are rolling off, the room mode takes over and carries output lower and then an auxilary sub picks up below the room mode and carries output to the low extremes. With a lot of fiddling and the tremendous luck to have complimentary speakers and rooms and a lot of time to get setup to work hand in hand, you can have a great setup with this method.

Now think of the probably more typical. The speaker carries right down through the room gain mode. You have a 10db or more boom at some narrow frequency band. Then you roll in a subwoofer and try to balance the lows which often winds up with a level closer to the gain of the room mode rather than the main bass content up in the low hundreds. That's how you wind up with the typical fat bass sound that's so common. Slow, sloppy plodding bass that is perceieved as "rich" and fun. OK...if not over done it can be fun on some material for sure. But it also isn't natural and can wear you out. The lumpy levels also tend to play fine on one song and not on others.

So to get to (finally) the implementation of this particular speaker...it's only going down to a frequency that's probably somewhere between the main room mode and it's second harmonic. So crossing where it needs it suggests it really should have true woofers, not subwoofers, and it's high enough that to really get content right, it should be a pair of woofers.

So if you use a sub, how well does it do at the higher frequencies than the traditional truly "sub" augmentation? Well, that's very, very speaker dependant of course.

Plenty will throw a single true sub in the corner and be happy with the result. And I'm not trying to throw a wet blanket on that. I'm just hoping to put a little discussion on those situations where the integration doesn't go as well and the reasons why that might be true.

Now...someone else's turn.

Mark
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Re: Sonorous Speakers Done - Now A Question

Post by Martin1970 » Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:30 am

Active crossover at 100 Hz 24dB/octave into left and right open baffle subs near each Sonorous worked pretty well at CF.

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Re: Sonorous Speakers Done - Now A Question

Post by TNRabbit » Sat Oct 03, 2015 10:11 am

^^^True. Martin & I ran frequency sweeps & it was pretty damned level across the audible spectrum!
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Re: Sonorous Speakers Done - Now A Question

Post by PDR » Sat Oct 03, 2015 10:26 am

Hey Brian, I'll second the OB sub suggestion.

My two line arrays use either 3" or 4" and need to be crossed high.
The 4" Hi-Vi array (Sodona) uses the same Dayton PT2C planers as the Sonorous.
They were paired with a double 12" sealed box sub for each side, they integrated
pretty well.

Paired with the bottom end of my Super Vs (OB) they just came alive, it turned
something good into spectacular.
OB bottom end is all I use with either array now.

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Re: Sonorous Speakers Done - Now A Question

Post by pmat » Sat Oct 03, 2015 12:55 pm

To tie in with PDR's OB bass observation, here is a link to the GR OB servo bass drivers that play well from 1st octave up to 150 hz. They require the servo amp for power. These are the OB specific drivers utilizing the Rythmic servo system.
http://gr-research.com/sw-12-08fr.aspx

Here is a discussion on Audio Circle about one implementation of these drivers.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=134523.0

And a link to Rythmic
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/GR_drivers.html
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Re: Sonorous Speakers Done - Now A Question

Post by kingman » Sat Oct 03, 2015 1:31 pm

TNRabbit wrote:^^^True. Martin & I ran frequency sweeps & it was pretty damned level across the audible spectrum!
I had a few beers and I thought it was spot on! \:D/ 8) :lol:
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Re: Sonorous Speakers Done - Now A Question

Post by radioeng2 » Sat Oct 03, 2015 1:37 pm

It's not hard to get bass. Thudda...thudda...thud.

The trick is to get tuneful bass that integrates with all that comes above. Doesn't call attention to it's self as a separate entity and is just part of the music as a whole.

That's where OB bass comes in! But I'm biased as many know. It's a different quality and doesn't have funny issues at different notes. The naturalness is the key for me.

But I was trying to talk bass augmentation in this thread for those thinking about it with regards to the necessity of these CF Speakers. The slope, the freq to roll it in. The placement. One or two? All that stuff plays into the results for sure. And probably everybody will report different results with different setups. But the individual reasons for why bass plays the way it does and cozy's up to the mains...or not...is still there in every situation.

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Re: Sonorous Speakers Done - Now A Question

Post by stevek » Sat Oct 03, 2015 5:45 pm

pmat wrote:To tie in with PDR's OB bass observation, here is a link to the GR OB servo bass drivers that play well from 1st octave up to 150 hz. They require the servo amp for power. These are the OB specific drivers utilizing the Rythmic servo system.
http://gr-research.com/sw-12-08fr.aspx
Very interesting, I might do a build with this driver. In the form of the 'Dual 12" OB H-Frame GR Research' project.
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Re: Sonorous Speakers Done - Now A Question

Post by PDR » Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:13 pm

I doubt they'll disappoint, I've done two different
builds of a variation of the same design.

The latest build..... http://carveraudio.com/phpBB3/viewtopic ... 3&start=60

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Re: Sonorous Speakers Done - Now A Question

Post by hewlew1 » Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:19 pm

kingman wrote:
TNRabbit wrote:^^^True. Martin & I ran frequency sweeps & it was pretty damned level across the audible spectrum!
I had a few beers and I thought it was spot on! \:D/ 8) :lol:
A few more beers and you would have been a spot on the floor. :lol: lol :lol:
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Re: Sonorous Speakers Done - Now A Question

Post by Don » Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:24 pm

hewlew1 wrote:
kingman wrote:
TNRabbit wrote:^^^True. Martin & I ran frequency sweeps & it was pretty damned level across the audible spectrum!
I had a few beers and I thought it was spot on! \:D/ 8) :lol:
A few more beers and you would have been a spot on the floor. :lol: lol :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Sonorous Speakers Done - Now A Question

Post by B-Man » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:40 am

Robert R wrote:I notice you didn't mention any experimentation with the placement of the sub. That might be a good next step. If it is in a place that augments the lowest material (e.g. a corner), you can't turn it up enough to fill in the higher stuff.

Rooms are awfully tricky in the bass end of the spectrum. Placing the sub between the Teslas (but not necessarily centered) can work very well.

Bob showed us how the phase cancellation of just a narrow frequency band can be interpreted as a lack of upper base, as you lose that one note you were expecting to hear. Sitting exactly in your listening position, run a generator on a downward sweep from, say, 200 Hz to 80 Hz and listen for any holes in your response curve. If you find one, mess with the phase control again, or move the sub a bit, and re-test.

RobertR
Robert - Thanks for the response. Unfortunately, placement variations are VERY limited. Due to the physical layout of the living room and the WAF, I have very little flexibility in where I can place the sub.

I know, I know, I need a dedicated listening room. Problem is she and I both enjoy just having it right in the main living area. We both love music and it is on whenever we are home and there isn't a particular show or event to watch on TV. I do have a nice room downstairs that I could set up and do some experimentation, but it is carpeted and the rest of the house is hardwood. Not that carpet is a bad thing, but it will definitely affect the sound.

Perry & Martin - The open baffle woofers sound interesting. I am going to read more about your setups and see what would be involved in doing some testing.

I have a set of AL-III's that, coupled with the True Signature sub, set the reference point for both my and her ears. We both absolutely love how they sound in the living room and we enjoy them immensely. Unbelievably, she actually LIKES how they look and has decorated the room to accentuate the blend, so to speak. I really think the AL-III's bring a huge performance to looks ratio to the game. They are tall, but they are fairly narrow (especially compared to my Polk 1.2TLs) and since our living room has 12' ceilings, they don't seem out of place. That said, they weren't "perfect" until I added the True Signature to the mix.

Without trying to sound like a d!ck, I want to say something that is on my mind. I went into this experiment to see if it was feasible to duplicate or improve upon the sound of my current system. I purposely bought two pairs of the speakers so that if it doesn't work out, I can sell one pair for almost enough to cover the cost of both pairs. I must say that there are things the CF speakers do VERY well. Being able to drive them to very high levels with a single M1.0t means fewer amps (my current config uses a pair of M1.0t MKII Opt 2s in a biamp configuration). They do create a very wide and deep soundstage on certain material. They are very clear and accurate to my ears. Their footprint is very small and they definitely have a unique look, which she and I are happy with.

I am not delusional enough to have believed that the CF speakers would outperform the AL-III's completely, but I did have some hope that, coupled with the proper sub, they could get close so that I would be happy enough with them to take the AL-III's out of service for a while. That said, I do know that even with the lack of upper bass I am experiencing right now, they still vastly outperform ALL of my non-audioholic friends' systems. I have them sitting in front of the AL-III's temporarily and without exception, everyone who has listened to them swears the AL-III's are playing too. :-)

I am going to drag the sub out and experiment with moving it around, just to get an idea of what is possible from a sound perspective. If anyone is interested, I'll share the results of my testing.

Thanks to everyone for all of the constructive criticism / ideas. I look forward to the research ahead...

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Re: Sonorous Speakers Done - Now A Question

Post by stevek » Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:06 am

PDR wrote:I doubt they'll disappoint, I've done two different
builds of a variation of the same design.

The latest build..... http://carveraudio.com/phpBB3/viewtopic ... 3&start=60
PDR,
I followed that build of yours. Beautiful looking speakers. More and more ideas are popping into my head.

If I build the bottom section I can add any speaker (OB or not) above it.
Steve
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