form over function with the tgp4

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angelod307
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form over function with the tgp4

Post by angelod307 » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:53 am

i got a tgp4 today from jesse. for the most part, it is nice. there are a few quirks that i have run into with the video converter. i also agree that the sonic holography in this unit is a major dissapointment. the esu i have on loan does a better job for sure, and it is not even the one to have for the holography effect. the other dissapiontment is that when you go to two channel mode, it drop everything other than left and right. in my set up, i use the subwoofers (4-12" eminence drivers that have a simular flat thick disc dust cover design that is like the oem woofers in the ribbons in m&k style boxes ) for reinforcement to the al-3 speakers. the woofers add a nice warm bottom end that really compliments the ribbons. at any rate, when you go to 2 channel, they drop out. the pioneer vsx-1014 has a simular feature, but keep the woofers intact. so, i won't say that the sunfire sounds better as i have not listened to it long enough to give that assesment. what i did notice right of the bat, is that it is a little brighter than the pioneer. so anyway, i will post things about it as i discover them about the reciever/pre. one thing for sure that is a real dissapointment is that even though the manual has the remote code for my cable box (scientific atlanta code 156 or 163), the remote will not accept it. also the jolida dvd codes are not there, and i have tried to get it to learn the dvd remote and it won't do it. wtf. more to follow.


edit: the remote code in the manual for the cable box is supposed to be 156/163, but it will not accept those codes in the remote. but as it turns out, it is code 11 for time warner's scientific atalnta boxes.
Last edited by angelod307 on Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: form over function with the tgp4

Post by Scarabeo » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:10 am

angelod307 wrote: I also agree that the sonic holography in this unit is a major dissapointment. the esu i have on loan does a better job for sure,
Yep, That kicked me in the azz on my first TGP! SH lacks the imaging older Carvers had and it stands out "RIGHT OFF THE BAT" THANKS for your thoughts on it and AGREED! =D>
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Re: form over function with the tgp4

Post by TNRabbit » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:16 am

You can use the sub in two channel. go to your manual & look up Enhanced Subwoofer Mode.

I guess I need to get my ears on a C-9 S/H unit as I've only ever heard the Sunfire S/H & think it is great....

I have never had any problem with the remote learning any codes....I'll PM you my phone number...give me a call a little later today.
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Re: form over function with the tgp4

Post by BillD » Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:20 pm

TNRabbit wrote:You can use the sub in two channel. go to your manual & look up Enhanced Subwoofer Mode.

I guess I need to get my ears on a C-9 S/H unit as I've only ever heard the Sunfire S/H & think it is great....
Thanks, Gary, I was just going to post that about enhanced bass. As far as Sonic Holography goes, I've always liked the analog implementation better than the digital one, but the digital one is less finicky. I've listened to the C-4000 and C-1 (which is identical to the C-9) implementation, and they are much more dramatic than the digital Sunfire implementation on the TGP-III and above. Anyone with an original TGP (I or II) care to comment on their implementation?
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Re: form over function with the tgp4

Post by TNRabbit » Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:43 pm

angelo & I talked on the phone about this for about 40 minutes this morning. He was using the 120 hz crossover with his AL-IIIs on LARGE & the Enhanced Basss with four H&K 12" subs in a push-pull configuration (much like yours, Bill) driven by a TFM-35 (?I think?). I believe I convinced him to try 40 hz crossover & set the AL-IIIs to SMALL.... hopefully he'll let us know what it sounds like....

Bill, what crossover point do you use?
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From FrankieD's lips to your ears: Sunfire - a quiet box of endless power.

Sunfire TG-IV/400~7 Amp
Carver SD/A-360 CDP
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Active bi-amp: Ashly XR-1001 & 2 Rane PEQ-15s
Main: HotRodded AL-IIIs
Sub: Klipsch RT-12d
Center: Sunfire CRS-3c
Surround: Sunfire CRS-3 (x 2)

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Re: form over function with the tgp4

Post by Toy Maker » Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:45 pm

There goes Angelo trying to save a buck again..... :lol:

How many times do you have to be told something before you believe it?
I know for a fact 2-3 of us told you to get a C-9, and to forget about the TG's
And I'm pretty sure Bob was there and agreed when the subject came up.

THE ONLY SH WORTH LISTENING TO... is either a C-9, C1, C11
Everything else is SHIT in comparison. They all work, and work well, but the 3 listed above are the ONLY ones worth buying is you want the FULL effect.

Bob even agrees that the digital SH is total shit next to the analog version.

I might be mistaken, but as Gary pointed out to me a couple years ago...
PLUG the RCA into your TV's video so you can use the OSD ](*,)
I would expect you can turn the sub on in stereo mode there ?!?

RobertR just sent me this 2 minutes ago... how fitting :lol:
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Re: form over function with the tgp4

Post by Toy Maker » Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:05 pm

Straight out the manual Sweet Cakes: Page 43
STEREO
This is the conventional two-channel
stereo mode with sound from
your left and right speakers. The
TGIV bass management lets you
use your subwoofer to handle the
lower frequency range.
We recommend that you try the
HOLOGRAPHIC IMAGE when
using stereo sources.

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Re: form over function with the tgp4

Post by BillD » Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:11 pm

TNRabbit wrote:angelo & I talked on the phone about this for about 40 minutes this morning. He was using the 120 hz crossover with his AL-IIIs on LARGE & the Enhanced Basss with four H&K 12" subs in a push-pull configuration (much like yours, Bill) driven by a TFM-35 (?I think?). I believe I convinced him to try 40 hz crossover & set the AL-IIIs to SMALL.... hopefully he'll let us know what it sounds like....

Bill, what crossover point do you use?
I'm using 80Hz right now, but my AL-IIIs are set to large. I might try going down to 40Hz with the mains on small and see what that sounds like.
It should sound like it isn't there!
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Re: form over function with the tgp4

Post by angelod307 » Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:14 pm

ok, after using this a little while, this is what i have found out. as the rabbit said, i tried the small and 40hz and did not care for it. the way the menu makes it seem is that the x-over is always on at atleast 40hz. it is not. if the speaker is set to large, it is fullrange. at the very least, when i set it to large l-r and change the freq to 160, it sounds identical to 40. the subs on the other hand, do change. so the there is a lowpass xover built in for sure. i thought i was not hearing the sh, but i must have not been paying attension as it does work. not as good as the esu and the 8" two ways on the m1.0t with sd/a-490t cd. the ribbons may not be in 100% proper position like the way i did the smaller speakers more the way bob descrided it. the ribbons are 2 1/2 feet away from the back wall and the little speakers were more like 1/3 of the room in and i am 2/3's sitting away. the pioneer pre, is not as revealing as the tg4. the pioneer is duller/flatter/not as bright for sure, and that is taking some getting used to. if i turn the treble down 2-3, it is more like what i have gotten used to. so i have set the speakers to large, the x-over for the woofers is between 70-90 (still listening for the best results in this setup) and unlike the pioneer, it is +6 up on the gain. with the pioneer i had it set between 150-200 hz low pass at -4.5 gain, out of phase, and it sounded a little fuller in the midbass section. still working that out. the tgp4 will not work the jolida dvd or cd thus far , i am still at it though. the onscreen display will not work with my projector in componet output, but is fine in composite and super video. have not figured that out yet. more to come as i listen and figure this out. thanks, to the rabbit for his help. next to see how to add a dtl/dbx/c-19 in some kind of tape monitor loop.
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Re: form over function with the tgp4

Post by BillD » Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:29 pm

AFAIK, the menu from the TGP's only works with composite or S-video, not component (the only two choices you have in the setup menus). If you have your mains on large, you will not hear the crossover to your subs as much. When they are set to small, all frequencies below the crossover point are sent to the sub. Thus, 40Hz and large really doesn't use much of your sub's range. Try 80Hz or 100Hz and small, and you will really be able to tell.
It should sound like it isn't there!
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Re: form over function with the tgp4

Post by angelod307 » Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:33 pm

ok, in stereo direct mode, only left and right outputs work and it does not use the sonic holography which is were i got a little confused, as you can still turn it on but without any effect.
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Re: form over function with the tgp4

Post by angelod307 » Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:44 pm

BillD wrote:AFAIK, the menu from the TGP's only works with composite or S-video, not component (the only two choices you have in the setup menus). If you have your mains on large, you will not hear the crossover to your subs as much. When they are set to small, all frequencies below the crossover point are sent to the sub. Thus, 40Hz and large really doesn't use much of your sub's range. Try 80Hz or 100Hz and small, and you will really be able to tell.


well, what i noticed is that the output is also dropped by a db or two with the x-over engaded on the left and right. the subs sound the same thus far with or without the speakers set to large. the enhanced mode is just like the pioneer plus mode for the woofers. at 40hz, one octave, the woofers i use do not do much with the music i listen to primarilly from floyd. i do like the direct mode, i just need to get my carver swx back from my friend and use it there maybe. the transpareincy and detail is stunning though in direct mode. the pulse concert cd sounds great. i did buy the remaster of the final cut, and i must say i like the original master better. the remastered version is so much brighter that it kinda sounds fake at some points in the album. newer is not always better. the added track is also out of place, they should have left that out as it really belongs in the wall album.
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Re: form over function with the tgp4

Post by BillD » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:40 pm

Well, in Direct Mode, you are doing no digital processing AT ALL. Thus, none of the bass management is in play (including the subwoofer output unless you are getting it 8-channel). Basically, you are using the TGP as a volume control.
It should sound like it isn't there!
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Re: form over function with the tgp4

Post by jjptkd » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:52 pm

One thing I noticed in the short time I used that preamp was that the balanced inputs seem to be about twice as sensative as the unbalanced, it got louder way faster. Since the sub preouts I used were rca, when I used the xlr cables for the amp, I had to turn up the subs appropriately to compensate. When I used the unbalanced inputs (rcas) for the amplifier connection, it seemed to even out the subs. You maybe running into the same thing.
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Re: form over function with the tgp4

Post by angelod307 » Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:54 pm

jjptkd wrote:One thing I noticed in the short time I used that preamp was that the balanced inputs seem to be about twice as sensative as the unbalanced, it got louder way faster. Since the sub preouts I used were rca, when I used the xlr cables for the amp, I had to turn up the subs appropriately to compensate. When I used the unbalanced inputs (rcas) for the amplifier connection, it seemed to even out the subs. You maybe running into the same thing.

i have not hooked up the xlr as i only have a set of crown amps that i can use them on and i was not impressed with their sound when we listened to them at the fest. keep in mind, i bought the crown amps for our bar at the family restaurant to do karoke. i wonder though why bob did not include at least one balanced set of inputs to go with all those outputs, for say a cd player. the jolida dvd player i bought not to long ago has a set of xlr's outputs as well as rca (tube outputs) and a 5.1 decoder built in. the more i listen to the tgp4 in direct mode, the more i love it. such detail. the dip/drop in db's i noticed was on the rca's for the main left and right. i guess it is the x-over that cut's the output a touch in the circuit. i also wonder why he did not go up to 200hz in the crossover for the fact that the crm2's need to be that high if i understand their specs correctly.
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