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It is currently Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:34 pm

ATTN: All Carver Owners Re: Sunfire/Carver Service in danger

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aawirth

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Location: BC Canada

Post Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:29 pm

TFM excellent response, I myself have lots of Bobs equip, Under the Carver name before he sold, the first time, problem is that even thou the amps and the rest of it is getting on in age some near 15yrs old have never ever been repaired to this day and just keep on ticking, Plus they are of quality design and sound, so in my case I never had need to buy sunfire, I think this applys to a lot of folk, So he has to depend on the new entry market sales, and the competition is tough out there with all the mass produced throw aways from overseas, Bob's not done yet, I'm sure he has something up his sleeve, it's his hobby and life :) Al
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DaveS

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The OverLord of CarverAudio.com

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Location: Sunshine-Empire State

Post Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:01 pm

I THINK YOU BOTH HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Rick Price

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Post Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:02 pm

May as well end on an upnote!

If someone looks "after" our investments in music and Hi-Fi, it'll be because someone who is doing it for two reasons: First, because we exist and create the demand (A virtual certainty) and Two, to enhance their own interests while fulfilling that need.

I appreciate everything Bob Carver did to bring true High Fidelity within reach of people who didn't possess the wherewithal to just "spend" their way into it.

If someone else picks that opportunity up and runs with it, I shouldn't care what their name is. Let's just hope it happens and the quality is high.........

I'm done on this topic. I wouldn't have been so upset if I hadn't spent 25 years watching him being run down in the high fidelity press. (I wrote my share of letters to editors in the '85-95' period) It still feels a little like a betrayal.

In any event, Good Luck to everyone, as we'll all need it with regard to one thing or another.

RIP Carver.
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Toy Maker

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Post Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:37 am

I spoke to Mylinda the other day... and unfortunatly, Bob sold EVERYTHING, including all the carver parts.
She said there is no way to support Carver products without the OEM parts.
She said no one is sure what will happen to the parts, but that the new company doesn't want anything to do with them.
I'm betting thay will sell all of it for pennies on the dollar to whoever is doing the CD and tape repairs.
Last edited by Toy Maker on Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Whatever you do in life will be insignificant, but it's very important that you do it... because nobody else will.

‎~You think Einstein walked around thinkin' everyone was a bunch of dumb shits?~

SHUT UP AND ENJOY THE MUSIC!
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ro9397

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Post Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:27 pm

I respect all honest opinions & whoever holds those opinions.

This is why I believe one must not be too rigid about trade with China or any other foreign country:

If you fully resist trading with China you will probably either have to be extremely rich &/or you will generally not be able to buy a good percentage of the normal goods Americans need & prefer just to live. As the saying goes, resistance is futile. In a free capitalisitic democracy, you must be able to trade. You can & must have some regulation, but you must have trade. Do you REALLY want to pay $250 the next time you purchase a toaster so that it is a union toaster made here?

Trade is a good thing. There is an undeniable, factual correlation between universal trade/economic growth/& democratic freedoms. This is the equation: The more poor, plundered, economically deprived, destitute, & exploited a people, the less they trade w/ the world; the inverse is also true. Trade=wealth, freedom & democracy. Isolationilism always preceeds war. One of the primary reasons you live in the most free country on earth is directly correlated with your ability to trade. This is why the Constitution prohibits states from setting up individual trade barriers. It would, within extremely short order, lead to a civil war & the end of the USA as you know it. Ever drive x-county or fly between states? Want to pay a tarif for every border crossing?

The fact is the USA could defend itself from any foreign invader for about $100B annually. The reason we have a $1/2 Trillion "defense" budget is that it actually is a global trade enforcement budget. That is right. The primary purpose of the US military now, is to enforce global & US trade laws. This country HAS no more foreign threats on a military battlefield. Our LAST top flight fighter jet would have six Soviet top adversary jet fighters run & hide from one USA fighter, such was its unquestioned supremacy. The very latest USA jet fighter replacing the previous, will consistently & effortlessly take down 6 of our previous fighters. What does that say about foreign enemies in the sky? (This infor from the mouth of a retired Marine pilot friend, heard him tell me sitting about a foot away.) It is assumed, though I can't necessarily prove it & you certainly can not disprove it, the overall net is a gain for the $1/2 trillion spent on "defense". (Not that I wouldn't like to see us exact some level of repayment for all the other countries that suck up our resources depending on us to protect them, like our neighbors north & south.)

The result of trade is that the USA's wealth is spread around the world, thereby at least hoping to lift up the world. Yes, it may possibly make life hard for some, & some people may need to go back to school & learn a new trade. But change is inevitable & consistent. Resisting it is futile. Would you really have wanted laws passed to keep people making cranks for cars when they switched over to electric starting? This country has enough wealth & freedom to allow it to maintain its economic lead, even with free trade. It's just that you may not be able to follow in your dad's footsteps doing exactly what he did for the rest of your life. I'm certainly glad I don't have to maintain a farm the way my grandfather did. American efficiency still maintains a consistent edge over the rest of the world, in spite of the invevitable march of globalism.

This is why (controlled & regulated) trade with China & all other countries is a net gain for the USA & the world.

Bob announced the sale at a dinner party I attended at THE Show Las Vegas Jan '06. BTW, what do you think he's going to do with the proceeds from that sale? I'd imagine it's a reasonable sum of money, though I would never guess an amount. But right now, whatever happend to it, it is in the possession or promised in the form of future profits &/or whatever (maybe a bit of both some money up front & stock in Sunfire, who knows, it's certainly & absolutely his own personal business). But the fact is, it's going to be in the control of someone who is a USA neighbor of yours! Bob is not going to put in under his mattress. It's going to purchase goods & or services, many of which will be going to increase the wealth of your fellow Americans. He is going to pay hella taxes up the whazoo to buy the fighter jet described above to insure the safety of you & your loved ones, & to make sure you don't have to pay $250 for a toaster or $150 for a blanket to keep warm at night. He is going to put in a bank so you can borrow on it & purchase a new home. Even if Bob invests some money overseas, it may build a plant somewhere to help lift someone who lives in dirt out of the mire.

The world is a very complicated place. Simplisitic answers like no trading with foreigners, maybe it's the best answer in the world & would solve all our problems. I doubt it.
Jim R.
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ro9397

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Post Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:50 pm

Geting back to the immediate concern, being Carver service. Bob, a very wonderful & smart as heck human, made & sold tens of thousands of amps, maybe more, under the Carver name.

Anyone who thinks there will not be someone to take up the mantle to keep those amps running is probably wrong. The better & more reliable their service, the better their ability to keep making profits. I know they could always just provide crummy service, knowing people have no choice.

But in a free world (remember, free trade?), other providers could smell blood in the water & compete with them directly. They could even call themselves somehitng like: "Better Carver Service"...

The main reason I visited the forum was because I was thinking about getting an old Carver amp. Hope this all pans out for us.

Hey, think about this. Each & every one of you now saying bad things about Bob for the sale, listen up...Not one of you can gaurantee with absolute certainty, if you slaved 80 hour weeks for years, making a company succesful from the ground up, that under no circumstance would you ever sell the company. What if your daughter or mom or dad or son needed a special heart operation to survive & there was no other way to pay for it? C'mon, get real.
Jim R.
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aawirth

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Location: BC Canada

Post Sun Feb 26, 2006 2:34 pm

RO9397, I have no idea what your first posting has to do with Carver, and being it's more of a political statement, with major areas of conflict,,perhaps you should just best delete it. Thanks Al
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boomer-X

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Location: Louisville

Post Sun Feb 26, 2006 2:37 pm

Jim R

Thanks for the warm fuzzies on Econ 101 (been about 12 years in my case).

No one is disputing that the USA should not trade with other countries. I would suggest you educate yourself further on what Chinese sweatshops are really like and the concentration camp environments that US companies help build and run over there so you can get your cheap Chinese toaster and clothes and they can post record profits. Know how many Chinese "factories" are actually prison camps?

Free trade and cheap goods are one thing but when corporations squeeze out all domestic competition to increase their profits with slave labor we are not all hunky dory in the USA. We enjoyed free trade for years that didn't put our manufacturing base in the toilet until the last decade(about the time China enters the picture).Free trade means you have a CHOICE whether to buy cheap Chinese junk or more expensive and almost always better made US goods and other countries that pay their workforce more than two dollars a day.

Why don't you go to Detroit and tell an autoworker about your Utopian views on this matter?

Personally I think you should avoid a Carver amp - you can probably get a cheaper Chinese made one (just not Sunfire...yet). Trust me I know Carver amps and own several - a disposable one is for you!

As for Mr. Carver your right, he doesn't owe us anything - doubt he even comes to this board or if he does and just thinks we're all funny to carry on about something he gave up on 15+ years ago.

Boomer-X
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ro9397

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Post Sun Feb 26, 2006 3:57 pm

aawirth wrote:RO9397, I have no idea what your first posting has to do with Carver, and being it's more of a political statement, with major areas of conflict,,perhaps you should just best delete it. Thanks Al


My post has political overtones, but it's mostly statements of fact with some opinion & conclusions. Is it only my post with political overtones that you find incorrrect? How about all the other posts in this thread with even more blunt political statements?

I was only responding to posts suggesting that purchasing Chinese goods is a bad practice. I disagree with that opinion, & stated reasons why I disagree. For that you desire me to delete my post. I don't think so.

I did not see anything in the rules disallowing political posts anyway. Still, even if the rule exists, it should be enforced consistenty. Otherwise it's not a rule but a tool to punish persons with whom one disagrees. That's called fascism.
Jim R.
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ro9397

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Post Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:06 pm

boomer-X wrote:Jim R

Thanks for the warm fuzzies on Econ 101 (been about 12 years in my case).

No one is disputing that the USA should not trade with other countries. I would suggest you educate yourself further on what Chinese sweatshops are really like and the concentration camp environments that US companies help build and run over there so you can get your cheap Chinese toaster and clothes and they can post record profits. Know how many Chinese "factories" are actually prison camps?

Free trade and cheap goods are one thing but when corporations squeeze out all domestic competition to increase their profits with slave labor we are not all hunky dory in the USA. We enjoyed free trade for years that didn't put our manufacturing base in the toilet until the last decade(about the time China enters the picture).Free trade means you have a CHOICE whether to buy cheap Chinese junk or more expensive and almost always better made US goods and other countries that pay their workforce more than two dollars a day.

Why don't you go to Detroit and tell an autoworker about your Utopian views on this matter?

Personally I think you should avoid a Carver amp - you can probably get a cheaper Chinese made one (just not Sunfire...yet). Trust me I know Carver amps and own several - a disposable one is for you!

As for Mr. Carver your right, he doesn't owe us anything - doubt he even comes to this board or if he does and just thinks we're all funny to carry on about something he gave up on 15+ years ago.

Boomer-X


Boomer-X
Thanks for all your moaning & complaining about the state of American trade. You have to be a secular progressive to have that much complaining with no suggestions whatsoever. Am I right? You start out saying you are not against trade, then list several paragraphs stating only the opposite. Are you bipolar too?

I am dismayed by your not-subtle put-down of my post, calling it Econ 101. The personal attack is always the sign of someone who has no legitimate argument. With all due respect, that is from Debate 101, which you obviously flunked.

I'll put this to you bluntly, because blunt objects appear to be your choice for tools: If you imply there is no freedom for you to start up an American made amplifier company to compete against Asia, you lie. Have at it.

Amplifier manufacturing is not like oil production & processing, which is an oligargic monopoly from the ground up. If you want to compete, go ahead. Many still do. There are many amplifiers made in the USA. It's just that you may be too cheap to buy one.

Maybe you should go to a neighboring city of Detroit, or Fremont CA, where tens of thousands of your American neighbors assemble cars for Japanese companies because the American leaders of the American car companies sold share holders down the toilet when acqueiscing to union demands. Because the companies will be obviously unable to fulfill their promises, jokers like you & me will be paying taxes to pay retirees benefits, after GM & Ford go bankrupt (or are purchased by Toyota). If you want to bet money against me on this, I'm waiting with cash in hands.

BTW, I'm not responsible for the type of employment chosen by an autoworker, so don't try to blame me for their predicament. Why don't you ask many of the USA autoworkers why they drive foreign cars? It's not my responsibility to protect incompetant unproductive US corporate greedy car executives, by setting up trade barriers against foreign cars. It's not any American's responsibility to do that. If car making is an area we can't compete, I'm not sure that's so bad. Besides, the fact is we are competitive in certain areas of manufacturing.
Last edited by ro9397 on Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jim R.
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boomer-X

TFM-45

Posts: 542

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Location: Louisville

Post Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:41 pm

Jim R

First of all, addressing me as "Bomer-x" immediately negates a lot of credibility (personal attack?).

There are Toyota and Honda plants close to here. My wife owns a Honda. She also doesn't buy Chinese sweatshop clothes and shoes.

Other than McIntosh I am not aware of any Amplifiers made in USA. I admit I don't keep up on them - never had to with Carver service only a phone call away.

I know when I spoke to the Carver service employee last week there were not a lot of cheerful feelings about the sellout.

If I wanted to make sport of you personally I would have posted that you should buy a TFM-6 on the main board in response to your question or just suggested you hit the road like some of the other veterans on this board do to newbies that come here and show their a$$ right off the bat.

Whenever someone touts "Globalism" as the inevitable future of our country one should cover appropriate orifices.

Boomer-X
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aawirth

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Post Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:46 pm

You wrote!
It is assumed, though I can't necessarily prove it & you certainly can not disprove it, the overall net is a gain for the $1/2 trillion spent on "defense". (Not that I wouldn't like to see us exact some level of repayment for all the other countries that suck up our resources depending on us to protect them, like our neighbors north & south.)

As a country of 30 million people versus your 300 million. we don't need your military help, were a peacefull country world respected, we also have no reason to support your military efforts. So don't use us for an excuse, were a pretty tough country up here and can survive quite well without your help. Al
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ro9397

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Post Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:08 pm

Canada has a standing army of barely 50k! And it is hard pressed keeping even that token army afloat! If Mexico decided to annex Canada you'd be speaking Spanish in short order except for the taxpaying dollars of Americans paying for its military might. Canada is extremely dependant & reliant for its very survival on American trade & tax dollars paid for our military.

You certainly, absolutely, positively could not defend yourself against attack without our might backing you up. 50k troops? Are you kidding? Implying that you have no ememies to fear is ridiculous. You have no ememies to fear because of the invincible half trillion dollar army south of you. (BTW, a true & heartfelt thanks for your support in Iraq & the Canadian blood shed there. I hope it was not in vain.)

I have nothing against Canadians. The Canadians I shared my home with were sweet, hard working pleasant people. But arogance & extreme ignorance like yours is just plain silly. How dare you make believe your country could stand on its own for 2 seconds against a legitimate attack
Jim R.
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ro9397

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Post Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:15 pm

boomer-X wrote:Jim R

First of all, addressing me as "Bomer-x" immediately negates a lot of credibility (personal attack?).

There are Toyota and Honda plants close to here. My wife owns a Honda. She also doesn't buy Chinese sweatshop clothes and shoes.

Other than McIntosh I am not aware of any Amplifiers made in USA. I admit I don't keep up on them - never had to with Carver service only a phone call away.

I know when I spoke to the Carver service employee last week there were not a lot of cheerful feelings about the sellout.

If I wanted to make sport of you personally I would have posted that you should buy a TFM-6 on the main board in response to your question or just suggested you hit the road like some of the other veterans on this board do to newbies that come here and show their a$$ right off the bat.

Whenever someone touts "Globalism" as the inevitable future of our country one should cover appropriate orifices.

Boomer-X


Boomer
Have you ever heard of a typing error? Congratualtions for turning a typo into a personal attack (it wasn't).

OTOH, your personal attack was not a mistake & was real. You made it, as I said earlier, because you have no facts backing up your theories, which is all your rhetoric is. I have no doubt you are an academic &/or secualr progressive. You didn't deny it, so there you go. There's no arguing with someone as small minded as you, so I'll just go ahead now & say everything you say is right, & everyone who disagrees with you is wrong.

Hey, did you turn in your parents yet? Heil Hitler, Boomer!

Oh, one last thing, I noticed nothing but more complaints & accusations in your rhetoric. If you aren't a secular progressive, no one is.

BTW, boomer, if you know nothing or little about amplifier manufacturing, why the heck did you mention the subject in the first place, implying American's can't compete in that arena, when in fact they certainly do? (There are maybe 20 companies or more here doing it.) Oh, I forgot, you are a theorist, & all theorists talk about is theories they have no real knowledge about...my mistake!
Jim R.
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boomer-X

TFM-45

Posts: 542

Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:37 pm

Location: Louisville

Post Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:28 pm

Jim

Nice edit of previous post.

I am NOT against free trade - just choose not to buy from China - As stated in previous posts I buy goods made all over the world.

Secular progressive? that IS funny! Would you believe I am a conservative? Must have entered the "no spin zone" - thank you Bill O'Reilly.

If you agree that arguing with someone as "small brained" as me is a waste of time - do us all a favor and ship out (I'm not the one having problems spelling words though) - or stick around and see if you can pi$$ a few more board members off. Several members have family and friends who work at Sunfire.

Boomer-X
Last edited by boomer-X on Wed Mar 01, 2006 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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