Offset problem with TFM-55?

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brit01
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Offset problem with TFM-55?

Post by brit01 » Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:40 pm

I just had a chat with an acquaintance who deals with vintage hi-fi about my Carver set up.

I mentioned that when I switch on the power amp there is a little bump through the speakers and also importantly during several recordings the cones move in and out very slowly about 0.5-1.0 cm.

He said that it has an offset problem and something about the bias needs adjusting. I've heard about this before but do not know any more than that.

Can anyone confirm if my TFM-55 needs servicing?

Thks
TFM-55, CT-3, Klipsch F-1, Rotel RCD 930AX

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Re: Offset problem with TFM-55?

Post by RichP714 » Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:52 pm

If you have a multimeter you can do the alignment yourself.
There are three adjustment trim pots, roughly in the circled areas:
Capture.JPG
Capture.JPG (156.46 KiB) Viewed 3285 times
The center adjust is for rail voltage; with nothing hooked up, and the unit turned on, adjust that pot for 98 volts DC from chassis (negative probe) to diode D503's cathode (the side with the stripe).

Then, from a cold start, let it warm up for about 4 minutes.

Left channel idling bias:
Put the probes across TP201 positive and TP203 negative and adjust VR201 for 2.5 millivolts

Right channel idling bias:
TP202 and TP204 VR202

That's it.

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Re: Offset problem with TFM-55?

Post by RichP714 » Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:56 pm

brit01 wrote:.....He said that it has an offset problem and something about the bias needs adjusting. I've heard about this before but do not know any more than that.

Can anyone confirm if my TFM-55 needs servicing?

Thks
If you look at the output of the speaker terminals with a voltmeter are you getting any reading (either in AC or DC.

A slow pumping in and out of the cones implies a very slow AC signal, which isn't good. A DC offset should get 'caught' by the offset protection circuit (you wouldn't see the cones moving anyway).

Either way, it's most likely a situation that's not going to go away by doing the alignment, but it's free to start there.

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Re: Offset problem with TFM-55?

Post by TNRabbit » Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:02 pm

The moving in and out very slowly is almost certainly from sub-sonic frequencies. Power draws that do nothing for you. A 20 hz filter will remove that.
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From FrankieD's lips to your ears: Sunfire - a quiet box of endless power.

Sunfire TG-IV/400~7 Amp
Carver SD/A-360 CDP
Benchmark DAC-1
Sony SACD/DVD-A
Active bi-amp: Ashly XR-1001 & 2 Rane PEQ-15s
Main: HotRodded AL-IIIs
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OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

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Re: Offset problem with TFM-55?

Post by brit01 » Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:29 pm

Great stuff guys.

Have to get myself a multimeter. What kind/range should I look for?
The moving in and out very slowly is almost certainly from sub-sonic frequencies. Power draws that do nothing for you. A 20 hz filter will remove that.
I heard this before. Mentioned this to the guy in the store and he didn't agree. There was a nice Kenwood pre-amp with a sub-sonic filter and asked what the cut-off point was. 20Hz he said. That's when I brought up the discussion.
implies a very slow AC signal
Can you tell me a bit more about this? What causes the slow AC signal and how can it be improved?

My girl will be in Miami in 2 weeks. Can I order one of the filters on line? Any suggestions?

Tomorrow I will have a further look at the schematics you posted and look under the tfm hood.

Cheers.
TFM-55, CT-3, Klipsch F-1, Rotel RCD 930AX

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Re: Offset problem with TFM-55?

Post by OBI56 » Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:34 pm

Brit, this kind of filter is usually built into the preamp. I don't have a manual for your CT-3 but check to see if it has a Low or Subsonic filter either on the front or back of the unit.
Why let facts or common sense get in the way of your opinions.

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Re: Offset problem with TFM-55?

Post by RichP714 » Wed Oct 01, 2008 8:02 pm

brit01 wrote:......Have to get myself a multimeter. What kind/range should I look for?
Anything that'll have a 100V range and a millivolt range; maybe even autoranging so you don't have to change ranges; should be pretty cheap.
brit01 wrote:......Can you tell me a bit more about this? What causes the slow AC signal and how can it be improved?
Unfortunately, if it were a 'normal' rumble from a turntable for example, 20 or even 10 cycles per second is pretty fast to the eye, and a subsonic or rumble filter would clear it; this sounds like a different fish. A slow pumping suggests a problem with the amp (assuming it does this with NOTHING plugged into it as a source)

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Re: Offset problem with TFM-55?

Post by brit01 » Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:58 am

A slow pumping suggests a problem with the amp (assuming it does this with NOTHING plugged into it as a source)
It just occurs when I'm playing music.
It's quiet and still when nothing is played.
Brit, this kind of filter is usually built into the preamp
No filter on the CT-3.

Perhaps one of these:
http://www.hlabs.com/products/crossover/

Cheers
TFM-55, CT-3, Klipsch F-1, Rotel RCD 930AX

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Re: Offset problem with TFM-55?

Post by TNRabbit » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:03 am

This one would work:

HP - SUB ( Sub-Sonic ) # 900111
12 db / Octave NEW!!!
20, 25, 30, 35 Hz
Straight through jacks ( Bypass )
TNRabbit
Image

From FrankieD's lips to your ears: Sunfire - a quiet box of endless power.

Sunfire TG-IV/400~7 Amp
Carver SD/A-360 CDP
Benchmark DAC-1
Sony SACD/DVD-A
Active bi-amp: Ashly XR-1001 & 2 Rane PEQ-15s
Main: HotRodded AL-IIIs
Sub: Klipsch RT-12d
Center: Sunfire CRS-3c
Surround: Sunfire CRS-3 (x 2)

OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

RIP WIlliam B. Dibble, 1948-2012. I'll miss you my friend.

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Re: Offset problem with TFM-55?

Post by brit01 » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:56 am

http://store.hlabs.com/pk4/store.pl?view_product=13

Hi Gary,

Not sure which one you were referring to sorry.

This one I have listed above: I could place this between the pre and power amp? I imagine that would be a good idea so no sub sonic frequencies hit the power amp.

Cheers
TFM-55, CT-3, Klipsch F-1, Rotel RCD 930AX

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Re: Offset problem with TFM-55?

Post by TNRabbit » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:59 am

TNRabbit wrote:This one would work:

HP - SUB ( Sub-Sonic ) # 900111
12 db / Octave NEW!!!
20, 25, 30, 35 Hz
Straight through jacks ( Bypass )
That's the model number from the page you linked.
TNRabbit
Image

From FrankieD's lips to your ears: Sunfire - a quiet box of endless power.

Sunfire TG-IV/400~7 Amp
Carver SD/A-360 CDP
Benchmark DAC-1
Sony SACD/DVD-A
Active bi-amp: Ashly XR-1001 & 2 Rane PEQ-15s
Main: HotRodded AL-IIIs
Sub: Klipsch RT-12d
Center: Sunfire CRS-3c
Surround: Sunfire CRS-3 (x 2)

OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

RIP WIlliam B. Dibble, 1948-2012. I'll miss you my friend.

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Re: Offset problem with TFM-55?

Post by brit01 » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:08 am

That's the model number from the page you linked.
Getting old. Can't see the model number on my screen. Symptoms of coming in at 5 am every day as we both know.

I think I should go for the 30Hz one as I have smallish speakers anyway.

Or maybe even this one that is adjustable and has an extra output!
http://store.hlabs.com/pk4/store.pl?view_product=12

I have Klipsch F-1 speakers. Which crossover should I go for? 20/30 or 50 Hz or even higher? Really not sure.

What d'ya think?
TFM-55, CT-3, Klipsch F-1, Rotel RCD 930AX

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Re: Offset problem with TFM-55?

Post by brit01 » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:42 am

Just bought the sub-sonic 30Hz high pass filter RCA level from partsexpress. 25 bucks.

Lets see if this makes any difference. Got to wait until my other half gets back from Miami. :(

Thks Gary and co
TFM-55, CT-3, Klipsch F-1, Rotel RCD 930AX

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Re: Offset problem with TFM-55?

Post by brit01 » Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:09 pm

There are three adjustment trim pots, roughly in the circled areas:
djust that pot for 98 volts DC from chassis (negative probe) to diode D503's cathode (the side with the stripe).
Question: Can you clarify where I place the negative probe of the multimeter? Also just to note that there are 2 diodes D503 soldered in parallel (on top of each other).

2 problems:
I can't seem to find the centre rail adjust! See photo.
centre idle.jpg
centre idle.jpg (21.06 KiB) Viewed 3153 times
Also TP202 and TP204 are missing!! :shock: :shock:
I'm thinking the some mods were done on the right channel these were not replaced. [-( [-( [-( [-( [-(
Is there a way around this?
TFM-55, CT-3, Klipsch F-1, Rotel RCD 930AX

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Re: Offset problem with TFM-55?

Post by brit01 » Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:26 pm

Also to add to the above I'm getting only about 1.85 mv on the left channel idle.

Can I adjust this to 2.5 mV before knowing the right idle? Well I tried a quarter both ways and no effect on the mV setting :?

If you look at the output of the speaker terminals with a voltmeter are you getting any reading (either in AC or DC.
Also I'm getting about 310 mV from the left speaker terminals! nothing from the right terminals (the right is dead silent when I power up, the left just a little bump)
TFM-55, CT-3, Klipsch F-1, Rotel RCD 930AX

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