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CarverAudio & TheCarverSite Reconciliation

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tkd.teacher

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Post Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:52 pm

Re: CarverAudio & TheCarverSite Reconciliation

Robert R wrote:I hate to be difficult, really hate it but we've been through a lot lately, and I'd hate even more to see us blow it in the stretch.

So James, by "as is" you mean as an independent forum, but without RP in charge? That's not how I interpreted your statement, but I guess you meant "as it is right now", not as it was two weeks ago. I have no way of knowing how things are there at this point. The question for many is, is RP permanently relinquishing control? Is he in control right now?

Gary - who used the word "retired"? It has gained a shade of meaning lately that was new to a lot of us, so some of us would like to hear a lot more clarifying details about that situation.

RR


Rich edited his own status to be "retired". I'm not sure what access that limits, but Gary can give you more detail as he was recently in that status.

John
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tkd.teacher

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Post Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:54 pm

Re: CarverAudio & TheCarverSite Reconciliation

Toy Maker wrote:It seems Mods and members are now rebelling, and want to keep things as is.


I don't know how the mods are feeling about it. I'm willing to let the vote be the vote. I just know what I've gotten in PM's and emails since the idea was floated, and have expressed that to James and Rich.

John
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Robert R

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Post Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:13 pm

Re: CarverAudio & TheCarverSite Reconciliation

John - There are two things being discussed at once here - it's a bit confusing.

One is the status of RichP, now and in future. That's what I'm talking about. At first I assumed that was what the vote was about, but apparently not -James was thinking about what the merger he was struggling with, and I was focused about my concerns regarding the leadership..

The other thing is what you are talking about here - the vote on the question of the sites remaining independent or merging. It seems the general consensus is to resist that radical a change - we hear that from valued members on both sites. I have no problem with that at all; hopefully there will be much more cordial relations cross-sites - that's what I hoped merging would lead to. But it isn't necessary, so it would seem. Things have happened in those relations that nobody could have imagined two weeks ago.

RobertR
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nooshinjohn

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Post Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:13 pm

Re: CarverAudio & TheCarverSite Reconciliation

I find it more than ironic that a site run in the fashion that would have made Stalin jealous decides to put this to a vote. Where was a "vote" when huge policy changes were made that led us to where we are now? If they had been allowed input then, we never would have had this discussion to begin with.
Carver Statement Reference Monoblocks!!!The Gear... Carver "Statement" Monoblocks, Polk Audio "Signature" Reference Series 1.2TL with complete mods, Polk audio AB700/800 "in-wall" surrounds, Dodd Audio MLP, Pioneer Elite SC-65, Peachtree I-DAC, Oppo BDP-93, Yamaha PX-3 Turntable, with Sumiko BPS EVOIII, Pioneer PDD 9MkII SACD Player, SimAudio moon 110lp phono preamplifier.[/size]
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Robert R

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Post Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:18 pm

Re: CarverAudio & TheCarverSite Reconciliation

That irony (or contradiction) didn't escape my notice, either. Question is, if he really has relinquished power, who the hell is he to call a vote, anyway? But he has called it, so what exactly is "retirement" today? And what will it be tomorrow?

RR
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radioeng2

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Post Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:27 pm

Re: CarverAudio & TheCarverSite Reconciliation

Robert,

It appeared like he called the vote and then pulled the plug on himself. I'm not sure if the retired is the same as others were retired or not.

Mark
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Robert R

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Post Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:34 pm

Re: CarverAudio & TheCarverSite Reconciliation

Thanks, Mark - one question answered, one to go.
RR
"You know what folks? I'm happy."
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bob p

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Post Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:17 pm

Re: CarverAudio & TheCarverSite Reconciliation

Tell me something -- why is it that you guys are at all surprised that this guy would lie to you, tell you one thing, and then do another?
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TNRabbit

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Post Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:21 pm

Re: CarverAudio & TheCarverSite Reconciliation

tkd.teacher wrote:
Robert R wrote:I hate to be difficult, really hate it but we've been through a lot lately, and I'd hate even more to see us blow it in the stretch.

So James, by "as is" you mean as an independent forum, but without RP in charge? That's not how I interpreted your statement, but I guess you meant "as it is right now", not as it was two weeks ago. I have no way of knowing how things are there at this point. The question for many is, is RP permanently relinquishing control? Is he in control right now?

Gary - who used the word "retired"? It has gained a shade of meaning lately that was new to a lot of us, so some of us would like to hear a lot more clarifying details about that situation.

RR


Rich edited his own status to be "retired". I'm not sure what access that limits, but Gary can give you more detail as he was recently in that status.

John


When I was in retarded status, I could only post in the chatbox & had access to ZERO threads or anything else there except PMs.
TNRabbit
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TNRabbit

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Post Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:24 pm

Re: CarverAudio & TheCarverSite Reconciliation

bob p wrote:Tell me something -- why is it that you guys are at all surprised that this guy would lie to you, tell you one thing, and then do another?


I don't see that. I saw James & Rich say "we're exploring these options; please stand by".....
TNRabbit
Image

From FrankieD's lips to your ears: Sunfire - a quiet box of endless power.

Sunfire TG-IV/400~7 Amp
Carver SD/A-360 CDP
Benchmark DAC-1
Sony SACD/DVD-A
Active bi-amp: Ashly XR-1001 & 2 Rane PEQ-15s
Main: HotRodded AL-IIIs
Sub: Klipsch RT-12d
Center: Sunfire CRS-3c
Surround: Sunfire CRS-3 (x 2)

OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

RIP WIlliam B. Dibble, 1948-2012. I'll miss you my friend.
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nooshinjohn

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Post Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:37 pm

Re: CarverAudio & TheCarverSite Reconciliation

bob p wrote:Tell me something -- why is it that you guys are at all surprised that this guy would lie to you, tell you one thing, and then do another?



Not shocked by any means, but a bit surprised. All signals from Rich seemed to point to the conclusion that both forums should return to being one and the same. The move to put things to a vote AFTER agreeing they should merge shows that he man is not thinking clearly IMHO, or that those around him are looking to exert some form of control over there. I don't understand why there is resistance to the idea of reforming the group. It would have significant benefits going forward, not the least of which is that information would be easy to find. The rejection of the idea is being made without even knowing what form the new site would take. As I said in a previous post, I believe the joint announcement was made way too early, as merely issuing a statement without a plan for moving ahead, and maybe even a site mockup that could be used to gauge reaction, is the equivalent of telling and adversary that you intend to attack someday, but your strategy is still in committee, but you will really be surprised when the battle starts.

I think it safe to say that BOTH sides are tired of the back and forth in-fighting, the suspicious way in which members of the"other site" are viewed, and by the severe over-moderation of one site and the perceived lack thereof on the other. The one thing the boards DO have in common is our love for Carver gear, and our passion for the best audio experience we can have. By joining the sites, we can solve lots of the drama that set us apart from one another in the first place.

There should have been a third option to this vote, and that should be to table the idea of merger for a future date, after seeing how well the inter-forum relationship improves, AND there is a viable outline for a potential new site that can show members what the vision is going forward. I also don't buy the idea that it would be to expensive to copy data over to the new forum. we could put together a few teams of volunteers with temporary mod status to go into the old sites and "mine" useful information from each by the old fashioned method of Copy and Paste. It would take time to do, and working with each other, we could figure out the best way to bring things forward.

I think the biggest thing spooking everybody is the thought of loosing all our data and starting over. My point is that if we all start working together as a team and not trying to do this by ourselves, this would be both a whole lot more attractive of an idea to both groups, but could also be kind of fun. It would also serve as a way to get everybody working together once again.
Carver Statement Reference Monoblocks!!!The Gear... Carver "Statement" Monoblocks, Polk Audio "Signature" Reference Series 1.2TL with complete mods, Polk audio AB700/800 "in-wall" surrounds, Dodd Audio MLP, Pioneer Elite SC-65, Peachtree I-DAC, Oppo BDP-93, Yamaha PX-3 Turntable, with Sumiko BPS EVOIII, Pioneer PDD 9MkII SACD Player, SimAudio moon 110lp phono preamplifier.[/size]
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bob p

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Post Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:56 pm

Re: CarverAudio & TheCarverSite Reconciliation

As James noted previously, the details of the merger were never supposed to be put up for a popular vote.
So far, neither Rich or myself are looking for suggestions or opinions.
What we are trying to accomplish is a common goal.

So far, both Rich and I agree on the end goal. We are not trying to make a "perfect" place that will make everyone happy. We know that is not realistic. What we are working towards it a "better" place for everyone.
If anything, putting the merger up for a popular vote should be interpreted as an attempt to scuttle the plan. Everyone knows that the people who currently enjoy power over there will never consent to becoming a nobody on a new site. Everyone knows that when given a choice between keeping something that is a known quantity and the prospect of having to trade it away for something unknown, people tend to choose to keep what they have. It's a bird in the hand, so to speak. I think that putting things up for a vote at such an early point in time exemplifies RichP's reservations about proceeding with the plan. Further, knowing human nature, he understands that he can put the merger up for a vote, and rely upon his membership to stop it. This gives him plausible deniability for stopping the merger himself.

Nonetheless, these concepts are lost upon a great many people. It amazes me that so many people can be so bad at strategic thought processes.

*edit: Cross-posted with John. Please read this post with the understanding that I didn't see John's above post until after I had written mine.
Carver Preamps: C-1, C-2, BillD's JVD-modded C-4000, C-9
Carver Amplifiers: BillD's C-500, M-1.5t (4) PM-1.5 (4) M-500t (2)
Repair/Restoration/Upgrade expert for all of these components.
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bob p

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Post Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:57 pm

Re: CarverAudio & TheCarverSite Reconciliation

I'd also like to object to the disingenuous application of my comments regarding the anticipated level of difficulty in effecting a merger of the databases. I was asked how hard it would be to pull off. I replied that it could be really hard, and that it could take a really long time, given the huge amounts of data to be dealt with. I never put a dollar cost on it. In putting the measure up for a vote, Rich has twisted my comments to say that the process would be "prohibitively expensive:"
We quickly decided that perfect was not going to happen; too many technical and monetary obstacles.
That's not anywhere near close to being what I said, and it's not fair to twist my words to try to negatively shape the opinions of people in a vote.

This is what I actually said: (emphasis added)
When you look at the total number of forums, sub-forums, threads, and posts that have to be moved in order to merge the two forums, the amount of data that has to be sorted is mind-boggling. There's no way to estimate how long the conversion would take. It's no coincidence that nobody's done this before. The cost is generally so prohibitive that nobody bothers to try to merge two web sites that were run on two different software packages on two different operating systems. Everyone just shutters down the old sites and makes them available as read-only archives.

The problem is that people are making comments against the "Elegant Solution", taking it completely off the table, without even bothering to take the time to look into the problem to gain an accurate assessment of how difficult it might actually be. To get a real, honest answer to that question, somebody would need to be given a copy of both databases. With both databases in hand the structures of the databases could be studied to provide a more accurate assessment of the problem. So far I've received nothing. Having nothing to examine, I can give nothing more than a speculative answer.

Let me be clear on this: Right now NOBODY has any factual knowledge about how difficult the actual implementation of a merger would actually be, so I object to anyone trying to shape the outcome of an election by misrepresenting my assessment of technical difficulties involved in effecting a database merger.



*edit: Cross-posted with John. Please read this post with the understanding that I didn't see John's above post until after I had written mine.
Carver Preamps: C-1, C-2, BillD's JVD-modded C-4000, C-9
Carver Amplifiers: BillD's C-500, M-1.5t (4) PM-1.5 (4) M-500t (2)
Repair/Restoration/Upgrade expert for all of these components.
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Robert R

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Post Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:15 pm

Re: CarverAudio & TheCarverSite Reconciliation

The prime goal is to see RP turn the corner, permanently, and somebody else administer the thing. At this point I don't even give a shit whether there are two forums or one. All afternoon I've waited to get a straight answer as to whether he is going or staying. Nobody seems to have a clue; that's answer enough for me. I don't think he has a clue as to how many people despise him, or else doesn't care.

Robert R
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bob p

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Post Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:24 pm

Re: CarverAudio & TheCarverSite Reconciliation

The prime goal is to see RP turn the corner, permanently, and somebody else administer the thing.
We can all forget about RichP giving up as being the puppeteer at thecarversite.com. He owns the site. Period. Although he's more than willing to appoint John as a co-administrator as a method of damage control during a period of site meltdown, you can forget about him ever completely relinquishing control. It's not ever going to happen. If you don't want to support a site that has him in charge, then you have to vote with your feet. Kudos to you for having the resolve to live by your principles, even though it costs you to do so.

On the subject of kudos: Kudos to both admins for putting links to both sites on each site's home page. We should all view that as the first constructive step in the positive direction.
Carver Preamps: C-1, C-2, BillD's JVD-modded C-4000, C-9
Carver Amplifiers: BillD's C-500, M-1.5t (4) PM-1.5 (4) M-500t (2)
Repair/Restoration/Upgrade expert for all of these components.
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