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Cables....do they make a difference?

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treitz3

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"Julian"
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Post Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:51 pm

Cables....do they make a difference?

Oh my God, hell yes! Anybody who says otherwise is missing out big time.

It can be incredible what a simple IC can do to your sound stage, dynamics, frequencies and more. If you haven't heard it? Don't knock it because it is so true that when you have heard the change, it's unreal.

Not everybody will notice the change but when you have arrived? There is nothing sweeter. I'm enjoying the music. Are you?
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to a good analogue reproduction.

Robert R. - "Did you see my North Korea analogy? I should have named it Carversite.kim"
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thuffman03

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Post Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:01 pm

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

I just talked to beemers417 tonight and over the last week he has been testing/playing with the Carveraudio cables and he loves them. He swapped between MIT and others that he has, he has many different types, and he is really liking the sound of the carveraudio cables.

So, Yes!, they make a difference and the ones Toy Maker is making are great. I am going to be swapping out all of mine soon to Carveraudio!
Some cool Carver stuff!
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Jag_97470

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Post Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:02 pm

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

I may not have the best interconnects, speaker cable, and power cords but they "are not" factory in the box crap. And Yes, I have heard the difference treitz3, and yes, I am enjoying the music! Thank you very much, \:D/
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lives country ( carver )

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Post Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:55 pm

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

.......wasen't there a road show on toymakers IC's

...is there any reviews on them?
thanks
country's...pure sole...
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Jag_97470

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Post Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:00 am

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

lives country ( carver ) wrote:.......wasen't there a road show on toymakers IC's

...is there any reviews on them?
thanks


Roadshow? :lol: :lol: :lol: let's see if I remember this correctly. I was the first one on the list to review these cables, still waiting, just like the guys waiting for their t-shirts > ](*,)
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njpolker

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Post Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:51 am

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

If you have a shit system and don't really care how could cables make a difference? Now if you care and try to better your listening experience of course the right cables make a big difference. It's really that simple.
Synergy is where its at. At least thats one of the things I have learned from you guys. I would use copper cables/IC's in a low to mid-fi system because they tend to be more forgiving and costs tend to be in line with the over all system. Silver tends to be more revealing which can be great in the right system. I have a mid-fi system and have copper all around and things are sounding damn good but not perfect, yet.
How does it go? Those who know know and those who don't don't :lol:
Fuck'em it's their loss =D>
Musical Fidelity A5 CDP
Polk SDA SRSII's with upgraded x-overs - Sonicaps and Mills Resistors in the High Pass Daytons in the Low Pass also upgraded Polk RDO-194 Tweeters Dynamat applied to driver and passive radiator baskets Mye Sound Spikes
Polk SDA 2a's with upgraded x-overs (Obbligato caps and Mills resistors) RDO-194's
Anthem PRE2L tube pre-amp w/Mullard and Mazda tubes DynamiCaps
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MIT S3 IC's
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EmSquare NC

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Post Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:03 pm

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

So far... I've never experienced a big difference with wire. I thought I did once but with further scrutiny it proved otherwise. I do hear differences but they are so subtle that I don't worry about it much. This isn't to say I have not paid attention to the question and have chosen to use connections that make sense to me. (Canare 4S11 & Monarchy Star-Quad PCOCC speaker wire for example)

The problem with comparing is you pretty much have to switch them out and you cannot get a decent one or the other, A/B comparison. And I have found that it is just as easy to get misled by what I think I hear as not. When I added a DAC to my set up I was able to switch between the outputs of the CD player and the DAC by remote control. That proved interesting.

I had bought a Musical Fidelity A3 24 DAC on AudioGon to improve my digital front end. This was, of course, based on the glowing review in stereophile. Biggest disappointment with an upgrade I have had. Now that I could A/B between a NAD 502 CD player and the DAC... the differences were so small that I could not be sure which was which. However, I could now swap interconnects around to hear the amazing differences that this had to offer. They were almost completely absent. Perhaps a decibel here or there of frequency response, maybe, but nothing more. Those interconnects that I could not get back into my system fast enough... proved to be an illusion. A figment of MY imagination. I was kind of disappointed. This by no means says I have tried this with a major cross section of cabling so maybe it lurks out there, somewhere beyond my experience.

To me... the problem with wire is it has crossed over to an article of faith. No longer a subject of honest discourse between either camp. And by what measuring stick do you compare it to? Let me throw this premise out there...

A connection should deliver the signal uncorrupted to the next device.

And that may be flawed to begin with. But let's run with it for a moment. Say that is true on an intellectual level for a moment. That would say that the best connector is no connection at all. Directly connected with no intervening wire involved. Integrated amp with identical circuitry instead of separates. Or, maybe, an amp built directly into the speaker. I do not suggest that it is the best way of doing things but this is strictly an intellectual exercise for now. In keeping with the premise then that would be the best you could do to begin with. How, then, could you alter that to achieve superior results? Realistically you might isolate small signal from large or acoustic coupling to the electronics. then the next best thing you can do is the minimum possible interconnections to achieve that. No resistive, capacitive, inductive or EMI influence on the connection. It arrives just like it was sent. The next device gets the signal just like it was generated. Is that the ideal?

OK, that may not be the ideal one is after, then. Perhaps you want an influence with the connections. A little more sparkle in the treble. Maybe tighten up the bass a bit. Then what you are really talking about is tone control. Or perhaps group delay over the frequency spectrum. And that is how I view the interconnect game. You can select connections that will do that to some degree. But, as we are all aware, there are some claims by some manufacturers that are nothing less than falsehoods. Personally, I feel pretty foolish when I allow myself to be deceived. I want to see the physics involved before I pull out the credit card. Another thing that gives me pause is that, to my knowledge, none of the cable vendors draw their own wire. It is all bought by specification from other manufacturers. At best, it is done by collaboration.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts on the subject. Since I have been an electronics tech for 30 years should this be a surprise? I do not mind people paying for quality but I would rather not see them scammed.
Last edited by EmSquare NC on Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
* NAD 541i > Behringer SRC2496 > Monarchy Audio NM24 * NAD C160 preamplifier * Marchand XM9 crossover (modified) * Sunfire Cinema Grand, Sig II * Magnepan 2.6 * Velodyne CT-150 *
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elgrau

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Post Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:38 pm

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

"A little more sparkle in the treble. Maybe tighten up the bass a bit. Then what you are really talking about is tone control."
Except that (tone control) is way too "broad brush" (to correct the "unknown" narrow band signal imperfections that "bad" cables can manifest) and tone controls can't compensate for what is MISSING in the input signal! Only boost what IS there, which is a poor substitute/compensation for what is missing! Tone controls cannot give you the added detail, and "signal clarity" that good cables can. And yes; would be nice if everything in your system could occupy the same location, but this not possible (nor practical!); hence the need for "wires". And only YOUR ears can tell you how much you need to spend for these "wires". Debating this "problem" with others (who can never tap into someone else's head and know what THEY are hearing or not hearing) is totally pointless. I'm done; WAY too much time wasted rehashing this "old" story!
Family room: 400 disk changer with PS Audio Digital Link III DAC; Technics SL-1100A TT. QED Quenx1 IC's from DAC & TT to Adcom GTP-602 preamp/Tuner. AudioQuest King Cobra IC's from preamp to M1.0t mk-II opt2. QED Silver Spirals 4M wires to EPI 1000’s.
Living room: AudioQuest Black Mamba 8M IC's from family room preamp to Barcus-Berry 2002R Sonic Maximizer to GlowPower Zyxt IC's to Sunfire 300x2 to Nordost 6M bi-source wires to AOS 28" MDF spherical speakers using six 8" woofers and eight 1" dome tweeters symm. arranged around the surface.
SS system: CX-995V DVD to AV-705x 5 channel amp (center/rears) & M1.0t mk-II opt2(fronts).
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Toy Maker

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Post Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:54 pm

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

Jag_97470 wrote:
lives country ( carver ) wrote:.......wasen't there a road show on toymakers IC's

...is there any reviews on them?
thanks


Roadshow? :lol: :lol: :lol: let's see if I remember this correctly. I was the first one on the list to review these cables, still waiting, just like the guys waiting for their t-shirts > ](*,)


Unfortunately, the list got moved around a little...
Jesse and Eddie had listened to a few sets from the 1st batch of IC's we made, and had made a few comments and suggestions.
The latest batches of IC's have these changes made to them now. So I rearranged the list to send them to Jesse, then Eddie 1st
So I could get their opinions on the new design before sending them on to anyone else.
The roadshow is still on, and has started. Jesse should be getting them any day now, and will hopefully be able to put them through their paces.

Here is the revised list from the Road Show thread:
viewtopic.php?f=126&t=7794&p=86022#p86022

1. F1nut
2. Eddie
3. Jag_97470
4. Rainwoman/man
5. treitz3
6. erniejade1
7. TNRabbit
8. corkdust
9. zoothorn
10. skip
11. weitrhino
Whatever you do in life will be insignificant, but it's very important that you do it... because nobody else will.

‎~You think Einstein walked around thinkin' everyone was a bunch of dumb shits?~

SHUT UP AND ENJOY THE MUSIC!
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F1nut

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Post Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:30 pm

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

Should be here tomorrow.
Political Correctness...defined

A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.



In a recent press conference, President Obama remarked, "If I had a city, it would look just like Detroit."
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treitz3

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Post Sun Jan 17, 2010 5:35 pm

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

EmSquare NC, let me know when you are in the Charlotte area. I can prove to you once and for all without any reservation what cable can do for a rig. No blindfold or great ears necessary. Hell, even an old hag who's hard of hearing could feel the difference on my rig.

Without a doubt.
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to a good analogue reproduction.

Robert R. - "Did you see my North Korea analogy? I should have named it Carversite.kim"
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OconeeOrange

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Post Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:52 pm

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

EmSquare NC wrote:
To me... the problem with wire is it has crossed over to an article of faith. No longer a subject of honest discourse between either camp.

A connection should deliver the signal uncorrupted to the next device.


This pretty much sums up my thoughts on the subject. Since I have been an electronics tech for 30 years should this be a surprise? I do not mind people paying for quality but I would rather not see them scammed.



===============================
Since it is a fun subject, like many of you, I have spent a lot of time researching it. Most of my effort has been web reading, and less hands on comparing since I don't have access to many different cables.
Experts abound in the area. To keep it honest, you have to be a little skeptical of the articles from guys selling things, even if it is just their web site or expertise.

Most likely, cables are like everything else. Line up a few different ones and some will be better than others. Some are better shielded if you need that. Some have better connections, and we all want that. As to performance, always upgrade your weakest link. Spending a thousand on cables might not be your best upgrade.

My music is mostly computer generated. To that end, you have to realize the music is traveling over internal wires and motherboards that may be the weak link. I hate to contemplate the problems encountered sending a quality wireless signal, but many "experts" claim it is excellent, and I suspect that is the area most research is going into. Many of the same problems are inside our other equipment.

Inside our normal equipment, the wires and connections are what they are. Hooking any exterior cable to pass the signal on to the next level can NOT improve things, and all we can hope for is less degradation. Connectors are a big deal, and cleaning means a lot there.

Like some of you guys, I buy fancy cables because - ??? Well, at the minimum, most look really cool and add confidence.

I believe if you have a good solid cable, the upgrade to a better one is mostly mental, and worth the price if it entertains you. I suspect most cables on an independent "Bob Carver" style test would show little bang for the buck beyond the level of many well made cables costing much less.

Even if one cable in the line is inferior, the rest must work with that signal, and cables cannot improve on the music they are given.

While I remain a sore spot to some here, EmSquare seems to be a breath of fresh air. I hope he posts often.
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treitz3

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"Julian"
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Post Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:22 pm

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

OconeeOrange, it's about time we meet. Think what you want, come hear the change for yourself. It's not like you are in Elgrau's situation and you have to travel across America to come hear the difference.....you are in the same state. Get your ass up here, let's have a beer and you will leave the wiser.....

While you are up here, we may have to stop by the local Hooters to see the finest gal around......straight out of the pages of Playboy. \:D/

Let me know. I'm more than willing to let you hear it for yourself. I'll provide the beer after you are in the know.

I'll set a date for a "mini-Carverfest" if you folks around the Tri-state area would like. Skip, Troy and some other old school folks I might be able to get here as well. \:D/

I'm game. I'm set, I'm ready and you better have cleaned your ears before you come.......ah shit, never mind. You'll be able to feel it.
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to a good analogue reproduction.

Robert R. - "Did you see my North Korea analogy? I should have named it Carversite.kim"
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OconeeOrange

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Post Sun Jan 17, 2010 8:09 pm

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

treitz3 wrote:OconeeOrange, it's about time we meet. Think what you want, come hear the change for yourself. It's not like you are in Elgrau's situation and you have to travel across America to come hear the difference.....you are in the same state. Get your ass up here, let's have a beer and you will leave the wiser.....

While you are up here, we may have to stop by the local Hooters to see the finest gal around......straight out of the pages of Playboy. \:D/

Let me know. I'm more than willing to let you hear it for yourself. I'll provide the beer after you are in the know.

I'll set a date for a "mini-Carverfest" if you folks around the Tri-state area would like. Skip, Troy and some other old school folks I might be able to get here as well. \:D/

I'm game. I'm set, I'm ready and you better have cleaned your ears before you come.......ah shit, never mind. You'll be able to feel it.


Damn, never had anyone invite me to their home. (Well not more than once). I am ready to travel as I am not very busy in the Winter.
I only drink good beer, and am willing to bring my own. I don't drink and drive, so I would need to either sleep on a pallet you provide, or take a taxi back to Dan's house. Unlike me, Dan is a normal guy (nuclear engineer) so if I need to go back to his house, he would need to be invited also. It sounds like a good party theme. Just tell me when.

This is so funny on the web, and what I warn people against all the time. Still, I am easy to check out, and actually guarded your home for many years.
email me at I'm a Fucking Asshole@yahoo.com if you are serious. It sounds like fun.
I may have just killed the deal on my blog though as I questioned car racing as a sport. http://www.carolinacalvery.com
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OconeeOrange

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Post Sun Jan 17, 2010 8:12 pm

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

I could pick up KINGMAN on the way
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