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Cables....do they make a difference?

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Magnaryder

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Post Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:13 pm

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

F1nut wrote:
Same thing I hear with my Lightstars. Nothing! How 'bout that shit????


Eddie and I had absolutely no problem hearing differences on his Sunfire.

Bob declares that all speaker cables sound the same with this amp, he wisely recognizing that most wires don't sound different in themselves, but that the differences one hears when using different cables is the sound of the power amp reacting to the changing loads presented by the various combinations of cables and speakers.


I have to disagree.


Seems to me he explained it pretty well.

All cables degrade the sound...they have to. But do they degrade it synergistically within your rig? meaning is the degredation less/not offensive to your ears?

A change in the math should change the sound. That means a change in materials should change the sound. Silver has different electrical characteristics than copper. Now whether or not it's audible in a given system or not is another question entirely. Do your kids/furnace/wifey/A/C outside influences add to the noise floor at your place? Have you assualted your hearing with so much LOUD car stereo that you can't hear anything anymore....like I have? My REALLY EXPENSIVE Silver loudspeaker cables are hand-drawn silver and sounded great in the C-19 TFM55 AL Silvers based sysem I used to have. Lightstar and Original ALSs rendered them irrelevant.....in my current rig. I do want to try some balanced cables in my rig as it stands. I've spoken to James about it because I really like the CarverAudio cables I have in my rig now. IIRC, MaddMaxx and Dreamer suggested balanced Sliver wires from Vampire.

But then again it's just my opinion. We all know what that is worth....bwaahahahahaha

ray(heading back to the kitchen...working on some new recipes)
Magnaryder

Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.

Tim deParavicini's E.A.R. Yoshino V20 Integrated Amplifier, Fosgate Signature Phono pre, No. 50 and 51 Carverfest Tube amps, Hammond M3 tube amp, Ariston RD-40 Turntable w/ Linn Basik LSV tonearn, Grado Statement Master1 cartridge, Cardas Silver wire service and wire block, Carver TX-8 & 11 tuners, Carver TD-12 & 1700 decks, Tascam CC-222mkII CD recorder, Carver HR-742 reciever, DBX-3BX & 200xg & 120x, CarverAudio ALV prototypes, Alesis Studio One loudspeakers, Dahlquist DQ-8s, The Carver Research DarkStar Sub and Stax Earspeakers.

THIS SPACE FOR RENT...helping the blind to hear, one valve at a time
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treitz3

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Post Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:20 pm

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

lives country ( carver ) wrote:.....just wondering!

has anyone tried using a dual trace scope and sig gen......and compared waveforms
Why? It's not electrical stuff that we are listening to David. It's music.

Things that are measured can not be equated to a listening experience. On the flip side, not all things that equate to a listening experience can be measured.
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to a good analogue reproduction.

Robert R. - "Did you see my North Korea analogy? I should have named it Carversite.kim"
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treitz3

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Post Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:29 pm

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

Rainman wrote:
treitz3 wrote:Oh my God, hell yes! Anybody who says otherwise is missing out big time.
It can be incredible what a simple IC can do to your sound stage, dynamics, frequencies and more. If you haven't heard it? Don't knock it because it is so true that when you have heard the change, it's unreal.



Treitz, I think it would be an outstanding idea if you could explain how long it took and what you had to go through in order to reach the moment where you discovered what one simple pair of I/C's can do FOR or AGAINST your speakers!!!!!!!!!
I say this because if more people understand what can be involved in putting together a system that is truly capable of allowing you to hear in detail what can happen by changing just one pair of I/C's! I wish some might look at their system a little closer and discover there is something in the chain which could be making it impossible for them to hear a difference from one pair I/C's to another. It's not the cables fault even though many are too quick to say otherwise while all along it is due to an issue in their system that is making it impossible for them to hear the difference between a pair of Solar Wind cables and the Playstation red&blacks that had been hooked up five minutes ago. (Poor speaker placement is usually the first thing holding peoples systems back!)

Rainman
Ah, I finally found it again Mike. Hopefully I will have time this week to address this post. You rock!
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to a good analogue reproduction.

Robert R. - "Did you see my North Korea analogy? I should have named it Carversite.kim"
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EmSquare NC

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Post Sun May 09, 2010 9:33 am

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

While ratting around on DIYAudio I happened across this. And it made me think about this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ&feature=player_embedded

I may not agree with absolutely everything in the video but it is hard to discount much of it. I was intimidated by the 58 minute video length but ended up watching ALL of it. Ethan Winer has been making a living as a recording engineer for thirty years and knows a lot more about the subject than I do.

Make a point to hang in through Poppy Crum's presentation about 5 minutes in. The whole thing is about 4 minutes. If you are not familiar with effect it has to do with demonstrating how people process sensory information. It does not make a difference if you know the trick, either. (except for a very small percentage of people because of the differences with how individuals process their senses) If you want to prove it to yourself, back the track up and do not look at the suggested lyrics. Most of us will not hear the same thing again. It is pretty dramatic how much what we see can change what we hear.

Thoughts?
* NAD 541i > Behringer SRC2496 > Monarchy Audio NM24 * NAD C160 preamplifier * Marchand XM9 crossover (modified) * Sunfire Cinema Grand, Sig II * Magnepan 2.6 * Velodyne CT-150 *
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kingman

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Post Sun May 09, 2010 9:52 am

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

I didn't play all of it, but I think the assumption we are programed to hear what we want to is correct. My lady tells me that all the time!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
In reality, it only matters what it sounds like to YOU!!!
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elgrau

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Post Sun May 09, 2010 2:16 pm

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

:shock: :lol:

Get a good system with good IC's then ENJOY THE MUSIC. Don't waste a bunch of time/money with 90% of the "snake oil" tweaks out there....life is short. Good video............with the caveat that they too, do not know everything about this subject!
Last edited by elgrau on Sun May 09, 2010 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Family room: 400 disk changer with PS Audio Digital Link III DAC; Technics SL-1100A TT. QED Quenx1 IC's from DAC & TT to Adcom GTP-602 preamp/Tuner. AudioQuest King Cobra IC's from preamp to M1.0t mk-II opt2. QED Silver Spirals 4M wires to EPI 1000’s.
Living room: AudioQuest Black Mamba 8M IC's from family room preamp to Barcus-Berry 2002R Sonic Maximizer to GlowPower Zyxt IC's to Sunfire 300x2 to Nordost 6M bi-source wires to AOS 28" MDF spherical speakers using six 8" woofers and eight 1" dome tweeters symm. arranged around the surface.
SS system: CX-995V DVD to AV-705x 5 channel amp (center/rears) & M1.0t mk-II opt2(fronts).
Garage: TLM-3600 CDP to MXR150 Receiver (pre) to TFM-42 to EPI 400 speakers.
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OconeeOrange

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Post Sun May 09, 2010 5:48 pm

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

Magnaryder wrote:
All cables degrade the sound...


This is a fun thread. To me the above nails it. At the end of the day - the difference may be in our ears. My old abused ears most likely can not tell the difference in a thousand dollar cable or one I got from Wall Mart.
On the other hand, I get great enjoyment from my music. I sit on my deck and play it most days as I find outdoors sounds better than in a sealed room.

Like everyone here, I often get caught up too much in the equipment and forget about the music. Both are good hobbies that I enjoy.

Now to call myself out before yall do -> my music does sound better over more expensive equipment. It does sound better over CARVER than any new new crap I might pick up. Some of that may be the 'mental' enjoyment of it all.

So, to be on the fun side, and for the mental enjoyment of it all - I have upgraded all my cables since this thread started. I had to give up a few meals, and trips to the doctor - but I really do believe it is more enjoyable out here now -- THANKS.
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treitz3

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Post Sun May 09, 2010 7:55 pm

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

Rainman wrote:Treitz, I think it would be an outstanding idea if you could explain how long it took and what you had to go through in order to reach the moment where you discovered what one simple pair of I/C's can do FOR or AGAINST your speakers!!!!!!!!!
OK.....here goes.

For the first part......how long? Well, I have been in this hobby since I was knee high to a duck at about the age of eight years old. Ever since I got my first hand-me-down [Scott] system assembled by my parents, I have been trying to improve the sound to achieve my goal of accurate reproduction of music. I had to mow many a lawn to improve things back then and I was the first one in the neighborhood to have this new-fandangled thing called a CD Player. That was a lot of lawns back in the day at a rather hefty price tag [at the time] of $600 some-odd dollars.

At the age of 17 to 18, I had what I had considered a "high-end" system. High end for Circuit City, Queen City, Best Buy and the like. I had heard tubes and experienced the real high end systems costing over 100K and I had even heard Carver gear at that time but all of that was out of my reach, given my limited budget. That system ended up getting ripped off when I was 19. I eventually got back a modest system that kept me tided over for many, many a moon only swapping out CDP's, receivers, about 4 pair of speakers and started dabbling into separates but nothing too extravagant. Until....

I got the urge to "upgrade" and bought a pair of Polk speakers to replace my RT-800's. Mistake.

Now I needed more power to supply the Polks and looked into getting Carver gear, which I did. In doing so, I found this thing called a "forum" and all hell broke loose. My very first post here was asking advise on what I should do to improve my system. Another mistake........well, I guess my wallet would say that but my ears are giving me a standing ovation. Multiple thousands of dollars later and well over 40-50 pieces of gear later, I had assembled Crackbaby. Now, Crackbaby was a good system that provided many a night of fun with musical performances but it had an issue. One that got me to replace my entire rig yet again.

Long story short, multiple thousands later, I have my latest system. Her name is Sparky. She's just a KISS system compared to Crackbaby and it took me about two years to assemble her to my liking. I'm still not 100% done but I am [for the first time] almost completely satisfied, even though I know that I never will be. Damn, is the music involving and pleasurable.

Alright, let's get back to what I was originally trying to address. How long? Basically, since I was 8 years old. That said, things really started to take a turn about 15 years ago when I met up with an audiophile friend of mine [Carlos] who hooked me up with my first Monster Cable. Then, once again when I met up with another audiophile [John] and he introduced me to my first PC upgrade. Since then, I have spent well over 6-7K just on cables including IC's, SC's and PC's. Some of the purchases were a complete waste of money, some were absolutely the right decision. It kinda surprised me but I did find out that price means jack shit when it comes to cables. It's all about synergy with that. I have heard cables that sound fantastic on one setup I have built that sound like absolute ass on another system I have built that resided in the same listening room. The cables that started this thread were not too far apart in price.....but in performance? Worlds apart.

Basically you couldn't pay me to listen to one while I would pay DEARLY to have the other.

Here's why. Many of you know that I recently got an upgraded set of Tyler Acoustic Linbrook Signature Series speakers. Man, I have to be honest. I thought when I first bought them that they sounded like ass and that I had made a HUGE mistake. I had no bass, sloppy mid bass, FUBAR'd midrange, a veiled presentation, no top end and I had to strain to hear even the not-so-subtle details that I had grown accustomed to hearing all the time.

I swapped tubes left and right, called my audiophile buddies for advice, scratched my head and pondered for about a week or so until I finally decided to swap out the IC between the CDP and the pre.

At this point, I'll refer you back to the original post of this thread because when I swapped it out? This post was my reaction. It took a very substandard rig and catapulted it into the most enjoyable and accurate rig I have ever had the pleasure to have in my house.

treitz3 wrote:Oh my God, hell yes! Anybody who says otherwise is missing out big time.

It can be incredible what a simple IC can do to your sound stage, dynamics, frequencies and more. If you haven't heard it? Don't knock it because it is so true that when you have heard the change, it's unreal.

Not everybody will notice the change but when you have arrived? There is nothing sweeter. I'm enjoying the music. Are you?
That same IC is still in place today. 4 months later and as the McDonald's commercial says?......"I'm LOVIN' it!"
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to a good analogue reproduction.

Robert R. - "Did you see my North Korea analogy? I should have named it Carversite.kim"
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treitz3

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Post Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:41 am

Re: Cables....do they make a difference? Yes.

That same IC is still in place almost one year later. Those that come to Carverfest will hear that exact IC [Silver Sonic BL-1 Series II] and the IC [Totem Rainmaker] that sounded like ass head to head on another system. [EDIT:] Turns out the original IC that started the thread was the custom Silver IC. So, different IC....same type.

Sure, I tried swapping out other cables in it's place but I keep coming back to this one [EDIT:] type of IC. Will it change? Probably. I can almost guarantee that whenever I get around to upgrading the crossover components in the Tyler's. We'll see.

Oh, and OO......you are welcome. :wink:
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to a good analogue reproduction.

Robert R. - "Did you see my North Korea analogy? I should have named it Carversite.kim"
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AudioJack

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Post Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:49 pm

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

+1 EmSquare NC. The Ethan Winer video is quite good and IMHO accurate on most points.
Jack
[i]Sunfire TGP-5, Sunfire Signature 600 ~ Two, Sunfire True Sub Signature.
Oppo BDP-83SE Argentum Mythos; Wadia 170i Argentum Argento; Acarian Alon IVs (2 ch)
Paradigm CC590 Center + (2) Gallo Strada Surrounds with Emotiva XPA 3 ch amp.
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Rainwoman

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Post Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:33 pm

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

Hmmmm. I always thought that the normal response to a question would be an answer. Despite my delight at reading others personal audiophile biographies, there is a reason Hugh Heffner limited his print to the centerfold. Looks good...but it lacks any substance. If anyone would like to review my 2008 "meal of crow" post regarding the difference good cables make. I've attached it below. I shared my experience with testing IC's and actually explained why I became a believer. I'll spare everyone my audio resume since it doesn't factor into my position on this subject. My beliefs are strictly from a listeners viewpoint. I don't use audiophile jargon that I picked up from experts on multiple audio forums. I don't read the scientific literature loaded with facts, figures, theories. I avoid technical discussions about how my gear works because I don't care. Hook it up, turn it on and play music. I know what I hear......and in the end, isn't that really what counts in audio?


Post subject: Blind I/C Plug N Play Test from a Non Audiophile
PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008

It seems the subject of aftermarket cables has once again become a heated topic and a point of debate among many members. The core question of every topic posted on the subject of cables always seems to be : "Do cables make a difference?"

Many of you have attempted to answer this question. Most of those contributing to the discussions have extensive knowledge of audio gear and are familiar with the scientific principles involved with it's operation. Some people seem to have experience with specific brands and their performance claims and many of you seem to have a preference for one over the other. I am one member of this forum who lacks all of these qualities. I don't know how or why my gear works and frankly, I don't care. I have no preference or preconceived notions for any brand. I know nothing about performance claims and have spent zero time researching any equipment or accessories whether they be aftermarket or not. I have no interest in this and couldn't care less. Some of you have stated that you would like an unbiased assessment of a cables. I believe I meet that qualification and would like to share my experience and observations will all of you.

For those of you that aren't familiar with my setup, please refer to Rainman's gear list. His gear is my gear and he is the "audiophile" in the house. He is the one in charge of building our system. When he first pitched the need for better speaker cables to me I wasn't convinced. I felt our system sounded great and didn't need improvement. I was even more resistant when I found out the cost. I thought he was out of his mind and the idea of spending that much money was inconceivable to me. To justify this need, he tried to feed me the technical sales pitch but I wouldn't bite. All of it sounded like complete and total BS to me but he persisted. When I found a bargain on a set of cables he wanted I figured it was worth the price just to shut him up so I bought them as a surprise. When his precious arrived, I laughed when he opened the box and I saw them. I could only shake my head at the ridiculousness of their size. He was so excited about them he quickly went to work on hooking them up. I had already done my part so I made myself scarce and busied myself with other tasks in another room. Once setup was complete, it didn't take long for me notice something was different. I was now feeling music through the floor two rooms away. My curiosity drew me in and I was overwhelmed with what I heard. The sound quality difference was dramatic. Everything was sharper, crisp, full and bright and the sound stage was much more evident. I felt like I was listening to a totally different system but it was all coming from the same Carver gear I had listened too hours before. The only difference was the cables and I continued to evaluate their contribution all night as I snacked on my plate of Crow.

What does this have to do with interconnects you might be asking yourself. Well, nothing really but it lays the foundation for the next phase of cable experiments. All doubt had been erased in my mind about the importance of quality speaker cables. I heard the difference on my own gear, how could I argue. Interconnects were a different story. I had no opinion about them and had no reason to even question their contribution. Rainman wasn't working me for any upsell and our system sounded great. Life was good.

One night shorty after returning from Carverfest, Rainman was working the reassembly of our system. At one point he looked at me and said "Lets have some fun. I want to do a test." Not knowing what he meant I proceeded with caution. He went on to explain that he was going to play the first 60 secs of a song for me and then he would "change something" and then play the same 60 secs again. He wanted me to note what I heard and I noticed any difference between the "test" sessions. He would then go through the process a second time making another change. I wasn't told what these changes would be and in order to avoid any guessing on my part, I had to leave the room when he made them so I couldn't see or hear his movements.

In all honesty, my initial reaction to this proposal was (eyes rolling in the back of my head) "Gee. That really sounds like fun." I but I played along. This is a summary of the "fun".

The track selected for this test was Steely Dan's "Babylon Sisters". I listened to the first 60 secs without noting much of anything. It seemed normal to me and I couldn't pick out any particular issue. The sound stage was front and center. There was definition and body to the instruments each coming from it's own location. There was 360 degrees of sound. I left the room and returned for my next 60 sec play. I noticed this time that the sound stage was totally killed. Overall the sound was much narrower. I was now 6ft wide instead of 60ft and it was lower. In fact it was too low and overall the instruments seemed to be out of place and restrained. I felt like it was on a flat screen. I left the room again and returned for the final 60 secs of fun. This time I noted that the bass was weakened and the vocals were not front and center. What should be crisp and sharp was instead blended and blah. Overall, the clarity was weak and the sound was dull. The sound stage was present but barely. It was so bad my first word to describe it was "mushy" because it lacked any sound body at all.

My overwhelming conclusion was that the first session beat the others hands down. Whatever he did in the second two were never to be repeated again. Period. I didn't want to hear that coming from my system again.

Armed with my observations, Rainman then made the reveal. The change he had made each time was to the interconnect between our pre-amp and amp. The cables are listed in the order he used:

PS Audio
Audioquest
Phoenix Gold

Going into the test without any preconceived ideas of what I "should" hear and coming out of it as I did, I am now forced to admit that there is something to all of this cable crap.

Do I know the difference between the cables he used? No.
Do I care? No. I just know what I heard when each were used.
Can you get improved sound out of your gear with a good cable? Don't know but the wrong cable can certainly kill my fun.
Will I use good cables in my system? Bet your ass!
Will I cringe at the cost of these cables? Sure..but I'll do it as I'm writing the check because it's now a necessary expense for me.
"If you're not on somebody's shit list, you're not doing anything worthwhile."
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TNRabbit

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Post Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:00 am

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

=D> =D> =D> =D>

Thanks for "re-gifting" that one, Diane~

My favorite part: "When his precious arrived..."

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
TNRabbit
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From FrankieD's lips to your ears: Sunfire - a quiet box of endless power.

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OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

RIP WIlliam B. Dibble, 1948-2012. I'll miss you my friend.
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helicopterpilotdoug

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Post Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:04 am

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

Thanks Rainwoman. =D> I had not seen your previous post. It was a great read! =D>
Sunfire: Theater Grand IV, Cinema Grand Signature.
Carver: TFM-45, PST-24 Cassette, Extra Carver Gear: CT-6, C-11 (S/N 00001).
Polk Audio: Mains SRS 2.1TL, Center CSiA6, Surrounds FXiA6 and FXiA4, Sub DSW MicroPro 1000, Extra Speakers SDA 2A, SDA 2Btl, Monitor 10A.
Turntable: Dual CS 714Q
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http://www.douglasconnection.com
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nooshinjohn

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Post Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:37 pm

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

treitz3 wrote:For the first part......how long? Well, I have been in this hobby since I was knee high to a duck at about the age of eight years old.




must have been a pretty big fuckin' duck! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Carver Statement Reference Monoblocks!!!The Gear... Carver "Statement" Monoblocks, Polk Audio "Signature" Reference Series 1.2TL with complete mods, Polk audio AB700/800 "in-wall" surrounds, Dodd Audio MLP, Pioneer Elite SC-65, Peachtree I-DAC, Oppo BDP-93, Yamaha PX-3 Turntable, with Sumiko BPS EVOIII, Pioneer PDD 9MkII SACD Player, SimAudio moon 110lp phono preamplifier.[/size]
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engtaz

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Post Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:02 pm

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

nooshinjohn wrote:
treitz3 wrote:For the first part......how long? Well, I have been in this hobby since I was knee high to a duck at about the age of eight years old.




must have been a pretty big fuckin' duck! :lol: :lol: :lol:

That should read deck.
engtaz


Carver M4.0T in front channels to Caver AL VI's in SACD & 2 Channel setup
C 16, PT 2400, Slim Device, Carver TX-8, 490T and Rega TT w Grado Gold cart in the 2 channel setup
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