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Cables....do they make a difference?

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OconeeOrange

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Post Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:32 pm

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

Depending on the day, I thank or blame this thread on me paying too much or too little for cables.

(does RainMan have no control over that woman?). Few gentlemen here will argue with a woman because either they are an "Officer and a Gentleman" (like me) or they hope to keep an open line to hit on her when the divorce happens.

Like most audio gear, it sounds good or it don't.
When we start spitting hairs about something one might or might not hear - it becomes an equipment thing. I like that as while some here claim it is all about the music - I know it is not. ](*,)

I am positive when I paid $85 bucks for a new 18" cable it was great! It changed my world. Really, the difference was day and night!! My friend Ed got those Norquist cables and all he believed in before changed -
Hell, none of us will admit that some times we have been bested by cons. :D
(now Ed will re-post that he saw the light, his music world changed and - :lol: )

I rearranged some things and my $85 cable was too short.
The replacement is a solid cable. Can I hear a difference now that the grandeur of owning an 18 inch cable that cost $85 dollars has worn off -- NO.

I have good cables on my stuff.
On the deck, I use balanced, but on other systems use RCA which Bob prefers.
I use good interconnects and good speaker wire.

If I hooked in some of these ridiculously priced wires to my system would I be shocked, - I don't think so, but --- have none. Maybe there might be a small difference if I really pay attention and try to find it knowing I just paid a bundle for cables. In fact, if I just paid a bundle, I am positive I would rather be thrilled than embarrassed. :lol:

I am sure that that spending hundreds or thousands of dollars to up grade my solid (not cheap) cables would not be the best use of my audio money. Keep in mind that I do have good cables, not from Radio Shack, but have nothing against those.

Once I get all the best hardware components in my bar, then I will go for that last "WOW" from diamond cables.

I have some good stuff, and some good cables, but believe that upgrades there or in power cables or power conditioners are not the best use of $$ for 99% of us as long as we have solid stuff in place.

I think a lot of it is just mental knowing you own a million dollar cable. I have those heavy, wrapped in flexnet cables and they make my gear look really serious to my neighbors who know crap. :lol:

I think better cables are good to a point, and then you pay stupid money for things that you need to congregate in a serious audio room to try and detect the difference.

My system and money are not yet to that point.

OO
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Rainwoman

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Post Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:01 am

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

OconeeOrange wrote:(does RainMan have no control over that woman?).
OO


If you knew me...you wouldn't have to ask that question. :lol: :lol: :lol:

FYI....
I'm open to debate on just about any subject but my observation on cables is not. Feel free to disagree with anything I said in my post but the fact is...you can't. Why? Because it's about my personal experience and there is no way to argue or disagree with it.

As far as men not arguing with a woman...perhaps but believe me when I say that this rule does not apply to me. I don't care for the implication you made that I was getting special consideration from the other members. Are my statements invalid because I am a woman? Do you read some sort of weakness in my post or do you sense I have some sort of female disability that would imply I need special assistance or consideration from the men? If so, let me correct you. I can hold my own with the boys. I don't need any special consideration. Besides, arguments normally involve fights and fighting is counterproductive. A fight means both parties close their ears as soon as they open their mouths because they are too busy trying to prove someone else wrong. If everyone is trying to win, everyone loses.

I did enjoy the rest of your post. Thanks for sharing your personal experience. Now get to the bank of the line....you are number #456. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
"If you're not on somebody's shit list, you're not doing anything worthwhile."
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OconeeOrange

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Post Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:22 am

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

Rainwoman wrote:
OconeeOrange wrote:(does RainMan have no control over that woman?).
OO



I'm open to debate on just about any subject but my observation on cables is not.



Even before you make your case, you say your mind is closed.
My Bride argues that way too.

To that end, anything I might have to offer would fall on a closed mind, so I just wish you well.

OO
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Glenlivet

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Post Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:54 am

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

Got to weigh in here with an opinion. Some will like it, some won't but in my experience any money spent on exotic speaker wires over and above wire that is adequately sized so that it does not introduce significant resistance, is money wasted. \:D/

After all, if you put in wall switches with solid gold contacts, and installed silver wire in the walls, does the room light look richer and sweeter? :lol:
Let's conduct some double blind tests!

Maybe I have a tin ear and I'm just not sophisticated enough a listener to tell a difference between exotic cable and adequately sized conventional copper wire cables, or maybe the fancy cables are snake oil. Who can say? Not me.
My eyes were opened one day when I took the main drivers out of a pair of good audiophile grade speakers and discovered that the internal wiring was what looked like scrawney little 22 gauge wire from the internal passive crossover to the bass speakers! Holy smokes!
So what would be the point of an owner going to extremes of expense buying thousands of dollar cables for the speaker to amp connections, when out of sight the final leg of the signal path was wire smaller than Radio Shack gives out with their cheapest remote speaker stereo?

In any case I didn't drink the Kool-Aid and I wired my own present main drivers and rears with 10 gauge copper multistrand wire and big rugged spade lugs. Sounds good to me. 8)

Roger Russell, a retired engineer for McIntosh, has on his website a page devoted to the question of speaker wire, and I like what he has to say. :D

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
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treitz3

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Post Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:32 am

Oh, lord....here we go....

Roger Russell, eh? Yeah, we have all seen that before and I'm actually surprised that it took 6 pages of discussions and over a year for it to be linked. Thing is, he is talking about speaker wire. This thread is about the changes I heard with just one interconnect. Your observations and subsequent opinions are just fine for speaker wire. I may not personally agree with them but I'm not gonna dog you on your stance, as there is no reason too.

On to Roger Russell. This link probably makes those that know that a speaker cable can make a change in the sound cringe because so many folks who don't know otherwise see it on the 'net and take it as audio law, not to be challenged. First thing is he uses all cheap wire. Cheap wire is not what is in the cables those in the know use. Second thing is, many of us in the know have more than "just wire". We have network boxes, battery packs, cryogenic treatments, bi-wire capabilities and/or IE shielding.....all of which change the characteristics of the end result. Even an EE with a Masters degree could vouch for that. Third thing is, technology has come a long way since his article was written. Why he hasn't done a new one in recent years/decades is beyond me. My final point you may want to ask yourself is if a cable is a cable, then why would he use extravagant, snake oil ridden and name brand cable in his new line of speakers.

Makes you think a bit, doesn't it?

Now, when it comes to expensive wire? Eh, this can be all over the map. To some, expensive is $50.00 and to others, expensive may be $800.00. On the same token, expensive could mean $10,000 or more. I have actually seen one pair of speaker cables listed for 87 grand. :shock:

So, what does he consider expensive and extravagant? What do you consider expensive and extravagant? I agree with you about the gauge. I have experienced that myself. I don't know whether or not you prefer stranded -vs- solid wire but I noticed that you had installed multi-stranded copper and actually posted about that fact. Don't know whether it's a coincidence but I prefer stranded over solid, personally. If you actually preferred stranded over solid core wiring, then that right there debunks the entire RR article. Just food for thought.

Glenlivet wrote:After all, if you put in wall switches with solid gold contacts, and installed silver wire in the walls, does the room light look richer and sweeter?
No. That said, powering a light bulb is not the same as audio reproduction. Last time I checked, audio signals don't go through a light bulb. :wink:

Glenlivet wrote:So what would be the point of an owner going to extremes of expense buying thousands of dollar cables for the speaker to amp connections, when out of sight the final leg of the signal path was wire smaller than Radio Shack gives out with their cheapest remote speaker stereo?
Thing is, folks who upgrade the crossover components and binding posts usually upgrade the internal wire as well. Many times, with favorable results. At that point, if they haven't already done so, they upgrade the speaker cables as they become the weak point in the system.

I am one of those that have what some would consider a small Federal Reserve in my cables. I have multiple cables for all applications to help me in tweaking my rig. Some swap outs make little to no change and some [like the ones mentioned in this thread] can make all of the difference in the world. I can take these same cables and put them in another rig and the results can be the exact opposite. That's where system synergy comes into play.

Just an FYI, while the retail of the cables I have may be beyond what some would consider "reasonably priced", it's definitely not what I paid for them. I always purchase used [with the exception of only 1 of the cables I own, which happens to be a power cord] and at drastically reduced pricing. I have one power cord that retailed for 1K and I got it for a tad bit over $100 shipped. You can't find deals like this everyday but if you are patient and know where to look, deals are out there to make the unaffordable....well, affordable.

I would like to ask you this, if you would be kind enough to reply, Glenlivet. What speaker cables have you tried other than the general stranded or solid cables you have mentioned in your own rig to make you come to the conclusion you have?
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to a good analogue reproduction.

Robert R. - "Did you see my North Korea analogy? I should have named it Carversite.kim"
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Don

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Post Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:54 pm

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)

Seems like this issue always surfaces on all forums at some time or another! To each their own opinion, as we all agree to disagree on some issues.
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.
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F1nut

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Post Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:55 pm

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

Roger Russell, a retired engineer for McIntosh, has on his website a page devoted to the question of speaker wire, and I like what he has to say.


Woger Wussell is a hypocrite. He currently uses Cardas wire in his speakers. How do you like him now?
Political Correctness...defined

A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.



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treitz3

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Post Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:38 pm

Well, speak of the devil.....

Here you go, entry level MIT speaker cables for 75% off retail due to a printing error that has absolutely nothing to do with the cable's performance. How does a pair of MIT SC's, 10 feet in length for less than 50 bucks sound?

http://www.mitcablesexpress.com/exp-b-stock-sale.html

It should be worth 50 bucks to anybody in this hobby to at least try to hear first hand what a cable can do for your rig. If you don't like it or can't hear any change for the better? You can always turn around and sell it for very close to what you paid for it.
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to a good analogue reproduction.

Robert R. - "Did you see my North Korea analogy? I should have named it Carversite.kim"
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Glenlivet

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Post Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:24 pm

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

...powering a light bulb is not the same as audio reproduction. Last time I checked, audio signals don't go through a light bulb...

Ouch! That's just the nature of a metaphor. It's not the same, right.

Looks like you fellas are much more 'up' on Mr. Russel than I. I just read and liked the website stuff.
So Russell has gone on in his retirement, to generate a line of speakers and he equips them with Cardas speaker wire?
And he hasn't taken pains to update his website to address this dichotomy?
Life is certainly odd. I didn't consider him a heroic figure, pouring light into the dark world of audio charlatans... I just liked what he wrote. :D

If Russell has come to realize that people aren't listening and they insist on being suckers then what the heck, he might as well have some of that sucker money as leave it for all the other snake oil salesmen. :lol: That wouldn't make him a man of very great integrity would it? Maybe he's lost his mind. Well, at least he had it together at one time. 8)

I am guilty of misreading the subject if the subject is interconnects and not speaker cables. Far as interconnects go I bought a bunch of gold electroplated RCA cables many years ago and I continue to use those, just because.
As to what cables I've tried well, a few including individually insulated wire ones but I'm not interested in quoting trade names in order to provide fodder for decrying, mocking, dismissing, or even approving of in the sense: "You tried **** and you didn't hear the difference?"
Names just provide a target. After all, I linked an article in the last post and what happens but the name of the author of said article gets immediately siezed upon and wrung out. What do you think would happen if I named cables? :lol:

But for my choice of stranded wire I don't think that makes me a hypocrite. I simply reasoned that for my needs in a practical speaker wire that's going to be moved and re-routed now and then, multi-strand is more flexible and has more copper surface area in a 10 gauge example than solid wire. That's probably why welding cable is multi-strand and not solid. :D

BTW, the light DOES look sweeter with the gold switch. I know it for a fact. :D
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nooshinjohn

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Post Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:03 pm

Re: Well, speak of the devil.....

treitz3 wrote:Here you go, entry level MIT speaker cables for 75% off retail due to a printing error that has absolutely nothing to do with the cable's performance. How does a pair of MIT SC's, 10 feet in length for less than 50 bucks sound?

http://www.mitcablesexpress.com/exp-b-stock-sale.html

It should be worth 50 bucks to anybody in this hobby to at least try to hear first hand what a cable can do for your rig. If you don't like it or can't hear any change for the better? You can always turn around and sell it for very close to what you paid for it.




Thanks T-3... I ordered 3 sets, Two for my big Polks, and a set for my Maggies.
Carver Statement Reference Monoblocks!!!The Gear... Carver "Statement" Monoblocks, Polk Audio "Signature" Reference Series 1.2TL with complete mods, Polk audio AB700/800 "in-wall" surrounds, Dodd Audio MLP, Pioneer Elite SC-65, Peachtree I-DAC, Oppo BDP-93, Yamaha PX-3 Turntable, with Sumiko BPS EVOIII, Pioneer PDD 9MkII SACD Player, SimAudio moon 110lp phono preamplifier.[/size]
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jjptkd

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Post Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:47 pm

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

Thanks for the link! I just ordered a 15' set for my mains! \:D/ \:D/
Sunfire TGP-III
Sunfire 405x5
PS Audio DL-III DAC
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Klipsch RSW 15
Klipsch KW-120 (2)
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elgrau

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Post Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:21 pm

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

Not to "shake the hornet's nest" or anything (I do believe, I DO! :lol: ), but it kind of play's into the phycological aspects of this whole "wires" thing when you notice how popular (out of literally HUNDREDs of cable makers) that the ones are with name's like "MIT" etc.: just couldn't be a sub-consciousness association with that famous institution of higher learning that is influencing that vast ocean of consumers out there to favor those companies (with these "fancy" sounding names) over all the other "lesser" one's could it? Naw....never! :lol: MIT and Monster and AudioQuest, etc., would ALL be just as popular (because they SOUND so good afterall!)with "generic" sounding names as well, right?
Last edited by elgrau on Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Family room: 400 disk changer with PS Audio Digital Link III DAC; Technics SL-1100A TT. QED Quenx1 IC's from DAC & TT to Adcom GTP-602 preamp/Tuner. AudioQuest King Cobra IC's from preamp to M1.0t mk-II opt2. QED Silver Spirals 4M wires to EPI 1000’s.
Living room: AudioQuest Black Mamba 8M IC's from family room preamp to Barcus-Berry 2002R Sonic Maximizer to GlowPower Zyxt IC's to Sunfire 300x2 to Nordost 6M bi-source wires to AOS 28" MDF spherical speakers using six 8" woofers and eight 1" dome tweeters symm. arranged around the surface.
SS system: CX-995V DVD to AV-705x 5 channel amp (center/rears) & M1.0t mk-II opt2(fronts).
Garage: TLM-3600 CDP to MXR150 Receiver (pre) to TFM-42 to EPI 400 speakers.
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TNRabbit

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Post Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:25 pm

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

In that case, Ed.....I'm going to market some speaker cables with the name OMG! ~
:lol:
TNRabbit
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elgrau

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Post Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:59 pm

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

Yeah, brand naming is VERY important in "audiophile land": Can almost gaurentee that if "MIT cables" had chosen "MSU cables" (sorry, BillD! :lol: ) as their name that no one would have a clue who they were nor try out their cables....same with amps: if "Joe Blow" made the VERY best tube amp on the planet and wrote a long ad about it on eBay no one would notice nor bid more than a few 100 bucks for it. Not a knock or dig (at Bob especially: he DELIVERS and has earned every eBay $ he gets! aside comment: someone posted here that perhaps he did not get "true market" price for his last creation: I beg to differ: with a sampling of hundreds of audiophiles from around the world bidding and/or checking out his stuff on eBay you get the very epitome of "market price" that way! Good for him!); just the reality of the business....
Family room: 400 disk changer with PS Audio Digital Link III DAC; Technics SL-1100A TT. QED Quenx1 IC's from DAC & TT to Adcom GTP-602 preamp/Tuner. AudioQuest King Cobra IC's from preamp to M1.0t mk-II opt2. QED Silver Spirals 4M wires to EPI 1000’s.
Living room: AudioQuest Black Mamba 8M IC's from family room preamp to Barcus-Berry 2002R Sonic Maximizer to GlowPower Zyxt IC's to Sunfire 300x2 to Nordost 6M bi-source wires to AOS 28" MDF spherical speakers using six 8" woofers and eight 1" dome tweeters symm. arranged around the surface.
SS system: CX-995V DVD to AV-705x 5 channel amp (center/rears) & M1.0t mk-II opt2(fronts).
Garage: TLM-3600 CDP to MXR150 Receiver (pre) to TFM-42 to EPI 400 speakers.
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treitz3

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Post Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:38 pm

Re: Cables....do they make a difference?

Glenlivet wrote:As to what cables I've tried well, a few including individually insulated wire ones but I'm not interested in quoting trade names in order to provide fodder for decrying, mocking, dismissing, or even approving of in the sense: "You tried **** and you didn't hear the difference?"
I'm sorry. That wasn't my intentions but I do see your point.

I have tried just about every wire that there is up to AudioQuest X2 speaker wire. Obviously, the larger gauge wires sounded substandard when compared to the smaller gauge wires but all of them sounded the same to me once you got the right gauge.

It wasn't until I added bananas on all ends of the X2 that I finally heard a change. I thank Rick [Mr.M500-t] for that. Oh, and there was nothing psychological about it Ed. They were free, compared to all of the other things I had tried that were not. When I finally went out and got a pair of AudioQuest CV-8's with a 72volt battery pack that was specifically built for audio applications? Only then, was I opened up to a whole new world of sound and enjoyment.

Oh and Ed, there are plenty of companies out there [think Signal Cable] that are known for quality cables at reasonable real world pricing. From what I have observed, their following is just as large as MIT's. On the other hand, you have companies like Monster. They have a huge following driven by a large and unscrupulous marketing campaign that many audiophiles can't stand. I would venture to say that many times MIT is a desired product because it isn't the most affordable out there and folks are curious to know what they sound like. That said, I just don't think it's fair to put them on the same level as snake oil because Mr. Russell posted an article that really has nothing at all to do with them and because you haven't tried them in your system yet.
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to a good analogue reproduction.

Robert R. - "Did you see my North Korea analogy? I should have named it Carversite.kim"
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