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300x2 vs TFM-42....continued: System Synergy??

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elgrau

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Post Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:42 pm

300x2 vs TFM-42....continued: System Synergy??

Now where was I? (before being so rudely interrupted over there in Mr. Rodger's Boring Neighborhood.... :-# :lol: ).
Ok; this may ruffle some feathers, but JMHO! Yesterday I swapped the amps on my two systems (living room and family room...same source). Put the 300x2 on the EPI 1000's in the family room and the TFM-42 back on the Sphere's in the living room (where it - or the TFM-45 - was before getting the 300x2). The 1000's have always sounded better than my DIY Sphere's (but both with EPI drivers: 4x8" in the 1000's and 6x6.5" in the Sphere's). However, after I installed the 300x2 Sunfire amp on the Sphere's it was a lot closer - at least I thought so: better treble, more "command" than the Carver amp.....so since the 300x2 helped the Sphere's sound I reasoned that if I put the 300x2 on the (better sounding) 1000's it would be like wow! But that's not really seeming to be the case: the treble on the 1000's now seems a bit "overdone" AND I seem to be liking the "old" way the Sphere's sounded with the more "tube-like " sounding re-furbed TFM-42! I can only speculate that perhaps the TFM-42 IS more "tubelike" (more "musical" and "smoother" sounding than the perhaps slightly more SS sounding and albeit more "powerful" Sunfire....). Could also just be "system synergy" (the Sphere's were/are a bit "bass heavy" with the TFM-42: with more "emphasis" on the treble end the 300x2 "evens this out" and thus improves them overall, whereas the opposite is true with the 1000's: they allready ok in the treble end and the extra "emphasis" of the 300x2 is just a bit too much...don't know for sure; all this very subjective and song dependent of course). But for now I'm going back to the Sunfire on the Sphere's and the TFM-42 on the 1000's (which for MY system sounds better than with the 300x2.....YMMV!) - Ed
Last edited by elgrau on Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Family room: 400 disk changer with PS Audio Digital Link III DAC; Technics SL-1100A TT. QED Quenx1 IC's from DAC & TT to Adcom GTP-602 preamp/Tuner. AudioQuest King Cobra IC's from preamp to M1.0t mk-II opt2. QED Silver Spirals 4M wires to EPI 1000’s.
Living room: AudioQuest Black Mamba 8M IC's from family room preamp to Barcus-Berry 2002R Sonic Maximizer to GlowPower Zyxt IC's to Sunfire 300x2 to Nordost 6M bi-source wires to AOS 28" MDF spherical speakers using six 8" woofers and eight 1" dome tweeters symm. arranged around the surface.
SS system: CX-995V DVD to AV-705x 5 channel amp (center/rears) & M1.0t mk-II opt2(fronts).
Garage: TLM-3600 CDP to MXR150 Receiver (pre) to TFM-42 to EPI 400 speakers.
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kingman

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Post Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:44 pm

Re: 300x2 vs TFM-42....continued: System Synergy??

In reality, it only matters what it sounds like to YOU!!!
In reality, it only matters what it sounds like to YOU!!!
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elgrau

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Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 9:33 pm

Post Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:55 pm

Re: 300x2 vs TFM-42....continued: System Synergy??

.....In which case ALL amps on the planet would be equals....clearly not the case!

It's called "High FIDELITY" and not "High Whatever Sounds Best to You" for a reason Kingman. High Fidelity is that "threading of the reality needle" that we all (amp/speaker/system designer's AND listeners) strive for and is what guides us all to a better system. Other wise what would have been the point of the Carver challenge, e.g.? Bob would have just put some pot adjustments in the back of his amps and instructed the end user to just "tweak it until it is Whatever Sounds Best to You"....
Last edited by elgrau on Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Family room: 400 disk changer with PS Audio Digital Link III DAC; Technics SL-1100A TT. QED Quenx1 IC's from DAC & TT to Adcom GTP-602 preamp/Tuner. AudioQuest King Cobra IC's from preamp to M1.0t mk-II opt2. QED Silver Spirals 4M wires to EPI 1000’s.
Living room: AudioQuest Black Mamba 8M IC's from family room preamp to Barcus-Berry 2002R Sonic Maximizer to GlowPower Zyxt IC's to Sunfire 300x2 to Nordost 6M bi-source wires to AOS 28" MDF spherical speakers using six 8" woofers and eight 1" dome tweeters symm. arranged around the surface.
SS system: CX-995V DVD to AV-705x 5 channel amp (center/rears) & M1.0t mk-II opt2(fronts).
Garage: TLM-3600 CDP to MXR150 Receiver (pre) to TFM-42 to EPI 400 speakers.
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wrstps

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Post Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:31 pm

Re: 300x2 vs TFM-42....continued: System Synergy??

I'm glad your telling it like it is. the reality is it takes work to get the right combination. And different speakers and amps plus pre-amps is something to deal with. I agee that some speakers sound great with tube amps and the llikes however some sound muddy and unreal with certain combinations, while others are overly bright in the high end. trial and error is what makes this hobby fun and perfection is and never will be obtained using current technoligy but we try to get as close as we can. the biggest problem is our ears are getting older (and so is or equimpment) so enjoy the ride and get as close as you can to reality, have a drink or whatever and have some friends over and turn it up!
Ray
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elgrau

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Post Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:46 pm

Re: 300x2 vs TFM-42....continued: System Synergy??

Yep...just trying to do that, wrstps! Albeit it a bit truncated (this thread) as it was started "over there" (Sunfire vs Carver "debate") and I was banned "over there" for doing just that ("telling it like it is"....some folks really don't like that because it don't agree with THEIR "like it is". So they ban and censor shit???..... Awww Hell No They Didin't !!!! .... those opines...why you'll probably come to like THIS forum BETTER, wrstps). Party-on indeed!
Family room: 400 disk changer with PS Audio Digital Link III DAC; Technics SL-1100A TT. QED Quenx1 IC's from DAC & TT to Adcom GTP-602 preamp/Tuner. AudioQuest King Cobra IC's from preamp to M1.0t mk-II opt2. QED Silver Spirals 4M wires to EPI 1000’s.
Living room: AudioQuest Black Mamba 8M IC's from family room preamp to Barcus-Berry 2002R Sonic Maximizer to GlowPower Zyxt IC's to Sunfire 300x2 to Nordost 6M bi-source wires to AOS 28" MDF spherical speakers using six 8" woofers and eight 1" dome tweeters symm. arranged around the surface.
SS system: CX-995V DVD to AV-705x 5 channel amp (center/rears) & M1.0t mk-II opt2(fronts).
Garage: TLM-3600 CDP to MXR150 Receiver (pre) to TFM-42 to EPI 400 speakers.
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jjptkd

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Post Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:42 pm

Re: 300x2 vs TFM-42....continued: System Synergy??

Sleep on it a day, the Sunfire will sound better in the morning, trust me! :lol: :lol: No, seriously, I find I get use to the way something sounds and that gets stuck in my head so that when I make a change, different isn't always obvious that it's better, Also, you might have to make some adjustments on your preamp, or even switch preamps to get a better sound. I found that my TGP-III really brings out the best in the Sunfire amplifiers but that's just me...
Sunfire TGP-III
Sunfire 600x2
PS Audio DL-III DAC
Klipsch "mini" Chorus II's
Klipsch RSW 15
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OconeeOrange

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Post Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:48 pm

Re: 300x2 vs TFM-42....continued: System Synergy??

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elgrau

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Post Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:00 pm

Re: 300x2 vs TFM-42....continued: System Synergy??

I did (sleep on it), jj. Probably my main point is not so much that the 42 MAY sound better than the 300x2, as (as pointed out by wrstps!) that system synergy is a BIG factor in getting the "best" sound from a set-up. But I heard the 1st set-up (300x2 on the Sphere's and TFM-42/45 on the 1000's) for several months so when I switched them, it was an easy "no, this is not better" after a day or two of listening. As to doing a lot of other "upgrades" and system changes, I prefer not going down those roads.....like to pretty much stick with what I got and SLOWLY tweak stuff when the oppurtunities just naturally come up.....otherwise you embark on endless changes that all tend to blur out over time (and take up too much time!). But to each his own... Just sharing my experiences of "Carver vs Sunfire"...YMMV! And anyway, I STILL do like the 300x2 better than the TFM-42 on the Sphere's...was just a bit surprised when the reverse was true (IMO) with the EPI 1000 speakers.



:lol: :lol: (OO's fighting kitties)
Family room: 400 disk changer with PS Audio Digital Link III DAC; Technics SL-1100A TT. QED Quenx1 IC's from DAC & TT to Adcom GTP-602 preamp/Tuner. AudioQuest King Cobra IC's from preamp to M1.0t mk-II opt2. QED Silver Spirals 4M wires to EPI 1000’s.
Living room: AudioQuest Black Mamba 8M IC's from family room preamp to Barcus-Berry 2002R Sonic Maximizer to GlowPower Zyxt IC's to Sunfire 300x2 to Nordost 6M bi-source wires to AOS 28" MDF spherical speakers using six 8" woofers and eight 1" dome tweeters symm. arranged around the surface.
SS system: CX-995V DVD to AV-705x 5 channel amp (center/rears) & M1.0t mk-II opt2(fronts).
Garage: TLM-3600 CDP to MXR150 Receiver (pre) to TFM-42 to EPI 400 speakers.
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TNRabbit

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Post Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:39 pm

Re: 300x2 vs TFM-42....continued: System Synergy??

Ed, I told you I thought your EPIs were over-emphasized in the lower treble range when I was there back in December.

I really liked a lot of things about them, but that was definitely their Achilles Heel~
TNRabbit
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From FrankieD's lips to your ears: Sunfire - a quiet box of endless power.

Sunfire TG-IV/400~7 Amp
Carver SD/A-360 CDP
Benchmark DAC-1
Sony SACD/DVD-A
Active bi-amp: Ashly XR-1001 & 2 Rane PEQ-15s
Main: HotRodded AL-IIIs
Sub: Klipsch RT-12d
Center: Sunfire CRS-3c
Surround: Sunfire CRS-3 (x 2)

OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

RIP WIlliam B. Dibble, 1948-2012. I'll miss you my friend.
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wrstps

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Post Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:19 pm

Re: 300x2 vs TFM-42....continued: System Synergy??

OO ...you the man... but the clown thing has always scared the crap out of me. and It it good to have an opinion of what sounds good to your ears. I have a set of B&W's that souond better with a sunfire amp than any of the tfm amps. I also have a set of ohm walsh that sound very bright and hard to listen to with the sunfire amp but sound great with the tfm 35 and 55. Its all in the mix ,and there are plenty of options, and that's what makes this hobby fun . We ,the Carver people are always trying to achive the ultimate combination If possible . We are never really happy so we just keep on going I think it called "OCCD" . Is there any end to the madness? We all have some type of music or song that's the sound of angels on our systems and others that had to come from hell . Relax and listen and believe in YOUR ears. And one more thing If your over 50 the hell with it you can't hear crap any way and this whole post is worthless~!!!!!
Ray (50)plus
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OconeeOrange

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Post Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:37 pm

Re: 300x2 vs TFM-42....continued: System Synergy??

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treitz3

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Post Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:55 pm

Let me get this straight....

You got banned because you were talking shop about audio? Hell of an audio website, Rich. Way to go.

Anybody ever wonder why I never talk about Sunfire yet I have owned many models and talk about Carver amplifiers all the time?
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to a good analogue reproduction.

Robert R. - "Did you see my North Korea analogy? I should have named it Carversite.kim"
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elgrau

SILVER-7 TUBE AMP

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Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 9:33 pm

Post Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:43 pm

Re: 300x2 vs TFM-42....continued: System Synergy??

"Ed, I told you I thought your EPIs were over-emphasized in the lower treble range when I was there back in December.

I really liked a lot of things about them, but that was definitely their Achilles Heel~"

They (EPI's) are known for being very "nuetral" (i.e., flat response curve from 22 hz to 18k hz for the 1000's). I disagree(d) with your assessment and I'd bet that they do not (have a +db bump in any part of the treble range...they published the response curve of the 100's which use the same basic module as the 1000's (just on all four sides of the speaker instead of just one face) and there is none)....just very flat response curve which can sound "emphasied" at higher frequencies if you used to a lesser amplitude at those frequencies.

From the brochure: "EPI loudspeakers are demanding....
In the process of reproducing all of the musical material, EPI speakers also duplicate any noises in a stereo system (the hums, hisses, pops and scratches*) with equal clarity. Speakers which do not have this linear HIGH-FREQUENCY response do not have this characteristic, and, as a result, they may seem to produce LESS noise (at these higher frequencies - Ed). This is done at the expense of the musical overtones." *obviously "back in the day" vinyl concerns....

To each his own, but I can say that Huw (humanspeakers.com) who has a very extensive array of vintage speakers to chose from that he sells and provides drivers for has the 1000's in his living room system.... But again, to each his own, and not really germain to this Sunfire vs Carver comparison anyway as both were heard with these same speakers and one (the 42) sounds near perfect (response wise) to THESE ears, whereas the other (300x2) the treble sounded a bit "over done" throughout...not just at a part of the HF band. Very similiar to the classic thing about SS highs vs tube amp highs....




"You got banned because you were talking shop about audio? Hell of an audio website, Rich. Way to go. "

No, Tom, that was Bobp who got banned for that.. :lol: ...I THINK I got banned for critizing "the great one's" bad-mouthing of America's free market system, capitalism ("greed" in his mind..) and America in general. Felt it was my duty as a patriot to let him know how I felt about his commie crap. His site; he can spew whatever un-American crap he wants, but I sure as hell don't have to refrain from letting him know how I feel either. No big deal, I was barely posting/visiting there anymore anyway when he (or one of his minnions) silenced me. Free country but just as I would not associate with child molestors nor the American nazi party, I have no desire to associate with him or (most of) those over there in "Lib land". I'm happy to be rid of it.....and just like Obama can not say that he was not influenced by sitting in Rev Wright's extremely un-American church pew, I don't buy it about those who chose to support Rich's un-American crap. Maybe it was me calling his arguments "mental masturbation" that did it.... :lol: :lol: Whatever...
Family room: 400 disk changer with PS Audio Digital Link III DAC; Technics SL-1100A TT. QED Quenx1 IC's from DAC & TT to Adcom GTP-602 preamp/Tuner. AudioQuest King Cobra IC's from preamp to M1.0t mk-II opt2. QED Silver Spirals 4M wires to EPI 1000’s.
Living room: AudioQuest Black Mamba 8M IC's from family room preamp to Barcus-Berry 2002R Sonic Maximizer to GlowPower Zyxt IC's to Sunfire 300x2 to Nordost 6M bi-source wires to AOS 28" MDF spherical speakers using six 8" woofers and eight 1" dome tweeters symm. arranged around the surface.
SS system: CX-995V DVD to AV-705x 5 channel amp (center/rears) & M1.0t mk-II opt2(fronts).
Garage: TLM-3600 CDP to MXR150 Receiver (pre) to TFM-42 to EPI 400 speakers.
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jjptkd

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Post Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:49 am

Re: 300x2 vs TFM-42....continued: System Synergy??

Well it's great that you've found a couple winning combinations. =D> I was only trying to share what I found on my Klipsch system. The Sunfire amplifiers were only slightly better then the Carvers until I added the Sunfire preamp, that's when they really sounded noticably better. I've even tried Carver amps since the new Sunfire pre and of course they sound much better then when I was still using my Denon receiver as a preamp but still no where as good as the Sunfires. In fact, I've come to the conclusion that if one had a full carver system and wanted to move up into Sunfire gear, I'd recommend starting with the preamp as it really was probably the biggest improvement in my system.
Also, like you said, it's all about "synergy" and I would have to guess that it's something else in your system causing the Sunfire to sound bright. My Klipsch horn speakers will flat run you out of the room with "bright" equipment and my Sunfire stack is as smooth as a babies bottom! :lol:
Sunfire TGP-III
Sunfire 600x2
PS Audio DL-III DAC
Klipsch "mini" Chorus II's
Klipsch RSW 15
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frankieD

Frankie The Mouth

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Post Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:51 am

Re: 300x2 vs TFM-42....continued: System Synergy??

I had a similar experience. When I got a TG III Sunfire Pre I couldn't believe the improvement over the Harmon Kardon I had been using. Then the Sunfire amp closed the deal.

Incidently Ed, of course Kingman is ABSOLUTLY correct when he says it only matters what it sounds like to you. You can quote all the specs you want about any speakers or amps but all anyone can do is listen through their own ears. We all hear slightly different. It is SUBJECTIVE to each of us.

Would you keep a rig that had "perfect" specs but sounded bad to you? I don't thnk so.

My .02
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