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Biamping question ....

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HRDROKN

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TFM-45

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Post Sun May 15, 2011 6:39 pm

Biamping question ....

Finally picked up a Rane 2way crossover to replace my Marchand unit.... What is the preferred way to connect the RCA 's to XLR's and back again? Adapters or balance/unbalanced conversion boxes?
Thanks!
HRDROKN
MC-7P tube preanp, BBE2002R, Marchand XM44, TFM-35x .002, TFM-35x, M1.0t MKII .002, M500t, Silver 7t's, SDA-360 and Klipsch KLF-30's w/crites crossovers...
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TNRabbit

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Post Sun May 15, 2011 7:51 pm

Re: Biamping question ....

Preferred is conversion boxes; you CAN open yourself up to ground loop & other noise issues with the RCA to XLR/TRS adapters.
TNRabbit
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From FrankieD's lips to your ears: Sunfire - a quiet box of endless power.

Sunfire TG-IV/400~7 Amp
Carver SD/A-360 CDP
Benchmark DAC-1
Sony SACD/DVD-A
Active bi-amp: Ashly XR-1001 & 2 Rane PEQ-15s
Main: HotRodded AL-IIIs
Sub: Klipsch RT-12d
Center: Sunfire CRS-3c
Surround: Sunfire CRS-3 (x 2)

OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

RIP WIlliam B. Dibble, 1948-2012. I'll miss you my friend.
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Martin1970

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Post Sun May 15, 2011 8:07 pm

Re: Biamping question ....

Not sure if you have the ac-22 or the ac22b

If you have the "b" with balanced ins and outs,
I suggest that you use a proper converter on the input
(when you go from RCA to XLR.)
I tried just using an adapter initially
and the sound had really crap dynamics
plus it has a tendency to screw with the noise floor.

The output is less critical (XLR to RCA.)
Typically just using an adapter is good enough
as you have a big fat voltage swing to work with.

As far as which units to use,
everyone has their favorites,
I have Rane's BB-44x and it's OK but not great.
One of the guys at Rane gave a wink and a nod
about Jensen having a better quality transformer.

A MUCH better sounding option, if you like DIY projects,
is to build one of BillD's adapters.
http://thecarversite.com/yetanotherforu ... osts&t=139
That's what I use now.
Like everything Bill comes up with, it's amazing.

I'm sure others will chime in with their favorites as well.

Good luck with your project!
Carver: ALS plat upgrades, TX-11a, C-9, C-1
Sunfire: Cinema Grand Sig 400 Seven x2
Rane: RPM88 26Z x3
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HRDROKN

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TFM-45

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Post Sun May 15, 2011 9:21 pm

Re: Biamping question ....

Thanks for that info!!!

I'm getting the Rane SAC-22... I thought I read that it had balanced ins and outs.
HRDROKN
MC-7P tube preanp, BBE2002R, Marchand XM44, TFM-35x .002, TFM-35x, M1.0t MKII .002, M500t, Silver 7t's, SDA-360 and Klipsch KLF-30's w/crites crossovers...
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HRDROKN

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TFM-45

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Post Mon May 16, 2011 1:36 am

Re: Biamping question ....

Ha...
So I was going through all my accumulated crap and found a CleanBOX! I can't even remember why I have this, but it looks like I would need two of them to cover the Rane outputs to the LF & HF amps.... assuming that I should convert back on the return trip as best practice? The more I read about the pros of balanced IC's... why did our gear end up with RCA's? Seems like someone should have changed the standard!
HRDROKN
MC-7P tube preanp, BBE2002R, Marchand XM44, TFM-35x .002, TFM-35x, M1.0t MKII .002, M500t, Silver 7t's, SDA-360 and Klipsch KLF-30's w/crites crossovers...
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TNRabbit

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Post Mon May 16, 2011 5:00 am

Re: Biamping question ....

Actually, here's what the BobFather most recently had to say about single-end versus balanced connections:

Q: Hi Bob, congratulations for your hard work on these amps. You mention the word balance here and there, but the design is single ended with a RCA input instead of balance with XLR input. With some few exceptions such as Conrad Johnson and few others, the hi-end industry seems to be more into a balanced design. A balanced design would obviously almost double the whole circuit of the amplifier but, didn't you forecast any sonic advantage to go into that direction, such as noise cancellation? Some statements are: - Balanced helps with ground loops as well as EM/RF. - Balanced also runs at a higher signal level so it improves S/N Regards, Gerry Apr-21-11

A: Hi Gary, Good thinking! Still, and just the same, I like vintage RCA input jacks better. Here's why: XLR jacks are more complex and do NOT sound better. They were designed to solve a problem that has historically plagued professional sound installations with long cable runs. These long runs tend to pick up hum and static - and balanced helps reduce it to a manageable level. Hum and static have no business in a home Hi-Fidelity system, and with a good installation any hum and noise will be non-existent. And if it is not, balanced will not help one iota, as it will almost certainly be coming from the source itself, not the cable run. Stu Hegeman taught me that the ubiquitous RCA jack yielded great sound, the best sound, and all balancing would do in a home system would add complexity and the ever present danger of the added signal manipulation harming the sound. Here is the final irony: A survey of modern vacuum tube power amps reveals that many have a balanced input jack as well as the standard RCA, BUT, the balanced part is NOT even hooked up inside - it invariably uses only the positive going half of the signal. In other words, it is NOT balanced at all! It is there as a convenience for those who have balanced cables, and the negative side signal is not even hooked up. It is usually left open or it's grounded through a 620 ohm resistor. Single ended sounds better. Great, great question, and one that really needed answering, as false beliefs are so very much alive in any discipline, especially audio it seems! Hope this helps. Best wishes and Warmest regards, Bob Carver
TNRabbit
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From FrankieD's lips to your ears: Sunfire - a quiet box of endless power.

Sunfire TG-IV/400~7 Amp
Carver SD/A-360 CDP
Benchmark DAC-1
Sony SACD/DVD-A
Active bi-amp: Ashly XR-1001 & 2 Rane PEQ-15s
Main: HotRodded AL-IIIs
Sub: Klipsch RT-12d
Center: Sunfire CRS-3c
Surround: Sunfire CRS-3 (x 2)

OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

RIP WIlliam B. Dibble, 1948-2012. I'll miss you my friend.
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kingman

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Post Mon May 16, 2011 6:30 am

Re: Biamping question ....

Thanks for that post Gary! I didn't know that!!! =D>
In reality, it only matters what it sounds like to YOU!!!
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HRDROKN

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TFM-45

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Post Mon May 16, 2011 9:17 pm

Re: Biamping question ....

TNRabbit wrote:Actually, here's what the BobFather most recently had to say about single-end versus balanced connections:


Now we have the rest of the story .... thanks for that post!

HRDROKN
HRDROKN
MC-7P tube preanp, BBE2002R, Marchand XM44, TFM-35x .002, TFM-35x, M1.0t MKII .002, M500t, Silver 7t's, SDA-360 and Klipsch KLF-30's w/crites crossovers...
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BillD

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Post Mon May 16, 2011 9:58 pm

Re: Biamping question ....

People use "balanced" in two ways. There are balanced connections which is what Bob was talking about, where the noise is cancelled out when you go single ended inside the amp, and there is "fully balanced amplification" that never takes the balanced input to single ended, but just amplifies both the hot and cold lines equally — which, as the author of the question says, doubles all the components. It's like taking a stereo common ground amplifier and using it as a monoblock with the two signals on the balanced XLR cable.
It should sound like it isn't there!
There is a difference between hearing and listening...
Making life enjoyable through expensive electronics.
_________________
Carver: C-4000 & C-1 preamps, PSC-60 preamp/tuner, TX-11a tuner, M-400 (2), C-500, M-500, M-500t, M-500t Mk.II, A-500x, AL-III loudspeakers (2 pr.)
Sunfire:Theater Grand III processor, Ultimate Receiver, Cinema Grand Signature 400 ~ seven, True Subwoofer Mk. II, D-10 Subwoofer
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Chauss

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Post Wed May 18, 2011 8:39 pm

Re: Biamping question ....

I was always under the assumption that balanced was only necessary for long distances- hence the higher signal?
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Good sound—like good music, good wine and good fellowship—is meant to be shared.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits" Albert Einstein
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OconeeOrange

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Post Wed May 18, 2011 8:47 pm

Re: Biamping question ....

Have no idea as to it all, just use what I have. (Actually, have that Bob quote somewhere.) My pre has one set of balanced out and one set of RCA out. I run the balanced to the SunFire and the RCA to the sub. Works great !!
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TNRabbit

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Post Wed May 25, 2011 8:43 am

Re: Biamping question ....

Chauss wrote:I was always under the assumption that balanced was only necessary for long distances- hence the higher signal?


Pretty much....
TNRabbit
Image

From FrankieD's lips to your ears: Sunfire - a quiet box of endless power.

Sunfire TG-IV/400~7 Amp
Carver SD/A-360 CDP
Benchmark DAC-1
Sony SACD/DVD-A
Active bi-amp: Ashly XR-1001 & 2 Rane PEQ-15s
Main: HotRodded AL-IIIs
Sub: Klipsch RT-12d
Center: Sunfire CRS-3c
Surround: Sunfire CRS-3 (x 2)

OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

RIP WIlliam B. Dibble, 1948-2012. I'll miss you my friend.
<<

BillD

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Post Wed May 25, 2011 12:03 pm

Re: Biamping question ....

It's not so much the higher signal. The signal on each line is close to the same as on an RCA cable, but there are two of them. One is the mirror image of the other (it is really incorrect to say that they are 180º out-of phase, because they are in-phase just one is upside down from the other). What happens in a long cable run is that noise picked up along the way adds equally to each of the signal lines (in-phase). When these lines are ultimately converted to single-ended, the upside down signal is inverted (making the noise now out-of phase with the noise on the non-inverted line) and summed with the non-inverted line and voilá, the noise is cancelled.
It should sound like it isn't there!
There is a difference between hearing and listening...
Making life enjoyable through expensive electronics.
_________________
Carver: C-4000 & C-1 preamps, PSC-60 preamp/tuner, TX-11a tuner, M-400 (2), C-500, M-500, M-500t, M-500t Mk.II, A-500x, AL-III loudspeakers (2 pr.)
Sunfire:Theater Grand III processor, Ultimate Receiver, Cinema Grand Signature 400 ~ seven, True Subwoofer Mk. II, D-10 Subwoofer
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Chauss

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Post Wed May 25, 2011 7:20 pm

Re: Biamping question ....

Thanks for the explanation BillD! - Makes sense!
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Good sound—like good music, good wine and good fellowship—is meant to be shared.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits" Albert Einstein
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OconeeOrange

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Post Wed May 25, 2011 8:04 pm

Re: Biamping question ....

Chauss wrote:Thanks for the explanation BillD! - Makes sense!


#-o #-o :-s :-s

All I need to know is that guys who advise me here are on top of things like this. =D>
I read some time back in one of my Carver Manuals when Bob said RCA is the cat's ass.

Back to biamping -- (this is me thinking, so please slap and correct me) 8-[

As I understand it, the sound is better if you run a dedicated signal to the high and low speakers. One expert says with charts that bi-wire is a waste of time. Like I said, well not me, Bob in my Sunfire manual, it is made for biamp with the "current" and "voltage" outputs.
To that end, some speakers are just not bi-amp friendly, but lucky for me, my SunFire speakers are. \:D/

I have a couple new speakers coming in for my Bar.
Image

These have a build in sub that plugs into the wall. So, Carver will just be pulling the top end.
Mine is a 5 channel 705. Would putting in an external cross over like Rane help? How should I go about running two of the 705's channels to each speaker to up the power from 125 to 250? They don't have 4 places to plug in on the back

The simple answer is to acquire another Sunfire 600, but It will take me a while to recover from the cost of the speakers. :rolleyes:

OO
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