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How do you find synergy....

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HRDROKN

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TFM-45

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Post Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:15 pm

How do you find synergy....

without dumping a boat load of cash? So do some get lucky and others just keep rotating gear..... :lol:

:-s
HRDROKN
MC-7P tube preanp, BBE2002R, Marchand XM44, TFM-35x .002, TFM-35x, M1.0t MKII .002, M500t, Silver 7t's, SDA-360 and Klipsch KLF-30's w/crites crossovers...
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TNRabbit

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Post Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:18 pm

Re: How do you find synergy....

You find a friend who's dumped a boatload of cash & found synergy....then bring beer over!
TNRabbit
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From FrankieD's lips to your ears: Sunfire - a quiet box of endless power.

Sunfire TG-IV/400~7 Amp
Carver SD/A-360 CDP
Benchmark DAC-1
Sony SACD/DVD-A
Active bi-amp: Ashly XR-1001 & 2 Rane PEQ-15s
Main: HotRodded AL-IIIs
Sub: Klipsch RT-12d
Center: Sunfire CRS-3c
Surround: Sunfire CRS-3 (x 2)

OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

RIP WIlliam B. Dibble, 1948-2012. I'll miss you my friend.
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HRDROKN

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TFM-45

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Location: Northern California

Post Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:40 pm

Re: How do you find synergy....

TNRabbit wrote:You find a friend who's dumped a boatload of cash & found synergy....then bring beer over!



Thats good..... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: !
HRDROKN
MC-7P tube preanp, BBE2002R, Marchand XM44, TFM-35x .002, TFM-35x, M1.0t MKII .002, M500t, Silver 7t's, SDA-360 and Klipsch KLF-30's w/crites crossovers...
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treitz3

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"Julian"
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Post Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:11 pm

Re: How do you find synergy....

Man, that's a hard question to answer. Blind luck does play a roll at times but as you experience more throughout your audio journey, you learn what moves you and what doesn't. Learn what "audiocabularys' [if you will] is. Talk about what it is that you are looking for in your rig. Be honest. Maybe have others over to listen to your rig and ask for their input, good or bad. Take suggestions with a grain of salt and learn who's taste in reproduction matches closely to yours. See what kind of gear they are using.

Other than that, it takes knowing what it is that you want out of your rig and not accepting second best. I know, easier said than done. Swap a lot of gear, Have your audio buddies come over with gear to hook up in your rig and take your gear over to their pad to let them play with it to see what works and what doesn't. Attend Carverfest or any other audio event that allows you to swap gear in and out. All of the aforementioned will help you to find the synergy, Actually getting it is a different story.

Unless you are lucky, it will take some dough and it may take a lot of gear. I have been through countless amplifiers, both tube and SS, a plethora of IC's, SC's and PC's, over 40 CDP's, 10 or more sets of speakers, 4 or 5 subs and the list goes on and on. Of all of the revolving systems that I have put together, only two have I been lucky enough to have had synergy on. The first was Crackbaby.....but I had to give that one up and start over after I learned what lobing was. The second system I have had been blessed with synergy on is my current rig....and this only happened about 3 weeks ago, after trying to get it back after 3 years and multiple thousands of dollars of gear. One IC was all it took after the edition of my Musical Fidelity amplifier. That's just my journey, you may take a different path.

The thing that you never want to forget is that you want to have fun trying to find it. Enjoy what you have when you have it and be patient. Trust me, if I wasn't patient, I'd have probably gone a-wall or just completely given up on the hobby altogether. Good things come to those who wait.

One of the best things I did when I first joined this forum was to let everybody know what I had as a rig and let them tear my system apart piece by piece. It started with the loss of the Carver CDP. I didn't want to do it because I had just purchased it but I asked the question and I wanted to see what other folks thought about my rig. They were right. I went out and auditioned 30-40 CDP's over time and finally came to purchase a Rega Apollo. That didn't last long because I heard the Jolida JD100 at an audio event and had the chance to compare the 2 head to head. The Rega lasted about 2 more weeks and it was out the door. Next came the speakers.....same thing. I had just bought them. ](*,)

Long story short, most of the rig has been swapped out at least 6 times. That, along with getting my ear on as much gear as possible led me to find my synergy. Look, just have fun. Try traveling to a friend's house or forum member that lives out of state. Go to different Hi-Fi shops in your area. Travel long distances if necessary. Eventually, you will get there.
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to a good analogue reproduction.

Robert R. - "Did you see my North Korea analogy? I should have named it Carversite.kim"
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TNRabbit

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Post Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:22 pm

Re: How do you find synergy....

For about 25 years, my system was comprised of a Pioneer SX-880 Receiver, Pioneer PL-510 turntable, & a cheap pair of 6x9 3-way car speakers that I built a nice set of oak cabinets for~

Then I moved on to a CD player & newer/cheaper Pioneer receiver & pair of Klipsch KLF-10 speakers for about 10 years.

In 2007, I lost everything in a divorce except the Klipsch speakers & started earnestly seeking Carver gear for the first time in my life. I bought & sold a C-2, M1.5t, Sunfire Tube pre, 300x2, & the Klipsch speakers all in the course 4 months. Then I replaced it all with my current setup.....

I have now achieved MY synergy~......for now.....
Last edited by TNRabbit on Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
TNRabbit
Image

From FrankieD's lips to your ears: Sunfire - a quiet box of endless power.

Sunfire TG-IV/400~7 Amp
Carver SD/A-360 CDP
Benchmark DAC-1
Sony SACD/DVD-A
Active bi-amp: Ashly XR-1001 & 2 Rane PEQ-15s
Main: HotRodded AL-IIIs
Sub: Klipsch RT-12d
Center: Sunfire CRS-3c
Surround: Sunfire CRS-3 (x 2)

OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

RIP WIlliam B. Dibble, 1948-2012. I'll miss you my friend.
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treitz3

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"Julian"
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Post Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:24 pm

Re: How do you find synergy....

How do you know this Gary? You have a pool table in the middle of your listening position! :-#
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to a good analogue reproduction.

Robert R. - "Did you see my North Korea analogy? I should have named it Carversite.kim"
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Chauss

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Post Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:25 pm

Re: How do you find synergy....

Best place to start is by addressing the acoustic dynamics of the room...ONLY then can you truly judge the gear you are listening to! This could be why tubes sound so much better to some- they "play" the room...SS does not do this.
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Good sound—like good music, good wine and good fellowship—is meant to be shared.
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Don

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Post Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:31 pm

Re: How do you find synergy....

Rabbit writes:For about 25 years, my system was comprised of a Pioneer SX-880 Receiver...


Gary,

Once a year, pull my Pioneer SX-1250 out of the closet. It was my second new "high end receiver" I bought after the Marantz 2270. Keep them both after all of these years. It's a back breaker hauling out of the closet. A job once a year for Matt. Still looks new.

http://www.classic-audio.com/pioneer/sx1250.html

Know one of the guys on this forum has it's big brother, the SX-1980! :rolleyes:
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.
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"Try not to become a man of success, but rather a man of value" Albert Einstein

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RIP Bill D.
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F1nut

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Post Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:48 pm

Re: How do you find synergy....

As Tom said, that's a hard question to answer as there are so many facets involved. A few guidelines using specs that might help you get there....impedance matching between pre amp, amp and source. Then matching that gear to a set of speakers. Of course, you can go the other way with the speakers first then match the gear to them. It's only a rough guide though. Mostly a lot of trial and error is involved.
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In a recent press conference, President Obama remarked, "If I had a city, it would look just like Detroit."
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Martin1970

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Post Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:36 am

Re: How do you find synergy....

Not sure how to ask this, but hopefully you can get at the meaning behind the weak and wordy writing.

(1)Are there some types of components that are less important when setting up a system?
For example, different digital sources given a particular dac.

(2)Are there some particular component models that are so over-the-top good at what they do that they can be considered to be 'not the problem' when troubleshooting the sound of your system?
An example that comes to mind is Sunfire amps with difficult loads. I broke the bank with a 400~Seven at the very beginning so that the amp was the one thing I didn't have to worry about.

I'm not advocating the examples given here, nor do I want to launch the interconnect or digital/analog debates. Just wonder if there are certain parts of the system that one can consider a 'foundation' and others that are more 'trial and error' that you should be trying lots of alternatives.


Oh yeah, and I've always wondered about the AL-IIIs vs. the pool table. Sure looks like it's in the sweet spot.
Carver: ALS plat upgrades, TX-11a, C-9, C-1
Sunfire: Cinema Grand Sig 400 Seven x2
Rane: RPM88 26Z x3
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OconeeOrange

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Post Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:22 am

Re: How do you find synergy....

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synergytwins.jpg
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TNRabbit

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Post Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:23 am

Re: How do you find synergy....

Martin1970 wrote:Not sure how to ask this, but hopefully you can get at the meaning behind the weak and wordy writing.

(1)Are there some types of components that are less important when setting up a system?
For example, different digital sources given a particular dac.

(2)Are there some particular component models that are so over-the-top good at what they do that they can be considered to be 'not the problem' when troubleshooting the sound of your system?
An example that comes to mind is Sunfire amps with difficult loads. I broke the bank with a 400~Seven at the very beginning so that the amp was the one thing I didn't have to worry about.

I'm not advocating the examples given here, nor do I want to launch the interconnect or digital/analog debates. Just wonder if there are certain parts of the system that one can consider a 'foundation' and others that are more 'trial and error' that you should be trying lots of alternatives.


Oh yeah, and I've always wondered about the AL-IIIs vs. the pool table. Sure looks like it's in the sweet spot.


You're going to get different opinions here; this is mine~

1. I KNOW the room is the weakest link in ANY system. Smart, properly placed acoustic treatments can make a world of difference here. However, this can't be done until you've completed the rest of the system (catch 22!), but just realize that up front.
2. Speakers are second. I would personally start here (I did). Listen to LOTS of systems & speakers in various environments to determine what might work best for you. Size is of course a consideration for most folks, so you may have to make compromises here. There's no substitute for displacement, but some pretty damn good sound CAN come out of small packages, albeit with a price.
3. Probably preamp next for coloration (or not) of the overall sound. Here's where tubes can make a huge difference if you're only placing them in ONE location of your system. There are many incredible SS preamps, too......there are just a lot of good options & the law of diminishing returns applies at all levels of this chain.
4. Source (TT, CDP, etc.).
5. Amplifier(s). I know you're surprised to see this here, but the amp choice depends a LOT on how difficult the speakers are to drive. Otherwise, IMO, it's just not USUALLY as critical in the scheme of things, tube envy not withstanding.


You can start with a good pair of speakers & build from there. GREAT speakers will never be cheap, unless your just one lucky SOB who inherits a pair. HOW good they need to be depends up on your ears. As Kingman says "if it sounds good to you..." which is the best advice I can give anyone. We all have different hearing & it's ridiculous to spend money on a $10k system when you are perfectly happy with a boombox from WalMart. That said, give yourself the chance to EXPERIENCE better than you've heard before to determine if it's something you need or are willing to forego in the case of someone who just isn't picky about it. Also, remember #1 above when selecting speakers.
TNRabbit
Image

From FrankieD's lips to your ears: Sunfire - a quiet box of endless power.

Sunfire TG-IV/400~7 Amp
Carver SD/A-360 CDP
Benchmark DAC-1
Sony SACD/DVD-A
Active bi-amp: Ashly XR-1001 & 2 Rane PEQ-15s
Main: HotRodded AL-IIIs
Sub: Klipsch RT-12d
Center: Sunfire CRS-3c
Surround: Sunfire CRS-3 (x 2)

OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

RIP WIlliam B. Dibble, 1948-2012. I'll miss you my friend.
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BillD

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Post Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:25 am

Re: How do you find synergy....

I think Gary's right-on on this. The things you are going to be listening to are the speakers. People have different tastes in speaker reproduction, so you need to listen to a lot of them. Some people like horn driven speakers (like Klipsch). Also try some electrostatics and planar (ribbon) speakers. When I started my journey, I found that time-alignment was the biggest thing that made a significant difference to my appreciation of the music. In those days (late 1960s) in the electrostatic area there was only Quad and some really esoteric ones (I remember one enclosed the panels in airtight containers with gas that they use in fire suppression systems to reduce arcing). For planars, only Magnepan. I found a few conventional makers that worked on time alignment, notably Dahlquist and DCM, and ended up with a pair of Time Windows that I still have today (you gotta love rubber surrounds!). But the idea of a single transducer driving most of the audio spectrum (and therefore totally time-aligned) eluded me until I got my AL-IIIs only a few years ago.

While Gary states the next thing to worry about is the preamp (and from a sound standpoint, he's right), I think I'd worry next about what you are going to drive your speakers with. There needs to be synergy between the speakers and the amplifier in terms of power delivery (especially current with low Ohm speakers). Horns and some conventional speakers (like Cerwin Vegas) don't need a lot of power to make a lot of noise. Others like LOTS of power (Carver, for instance).
It should sound like it isn't there!
There is a difference between hearing and listening...
Making life enjoyable through expensive electronics.
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Carver: C-4000 & C-1 preamps, PSC-60 preamp/tuner, TX-11a tuner, M-400 (2), C-500, M-500, M-500t, M-500t Mk.II, A-500x, AL-III loudspeakers (2 pr.)
Sunfire:Theater Grand III processor, Ultimate Receiver, Cinema Grand Signature 400 ~ seven, True Subwoofer Mk. II, D-10 Subwoofer
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OconeeOrange

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Post Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:56 am

Re: How do you find synergy....

It all keeps changing as I see it.
I don't mean just the science, but the applications.

These days most spend their audio $$ on A/V. They also so use that system for tunes, and some have many SACDS to take advantage of that multi channel set up.

It is not the same quest as just 2-channel.
Tom mentioned lobbing to me back when I had nine speakers that sounded excellent out here shining on my deck chair. - (I don't know what you call 5.1)
My Carver CT-17 can jump back and forth between 5 and stereo - maybe most do that. I never play tunes on that system so it is a mute point to me. For movie audio I need to be able to blow things up, not so much for music.

To that end, subs are not as important as good speakers in my stereo quest, but very important in the A/V.

Thanks to help from many here, I have now good stereo. =D>
I guess there is always room to improve, and most here would say my wires are my week point.

What track are you on??
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TNRabbit

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Post Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:03 pm

Re: How do you find synergy....

OconeeOrange wrote:It all keeps changing as I see it.
I don't mean just the science, but the applications.

These days most spend their audio $$ on A/V. They also so use that system for tunes, and some have many SACDS to take advantage of that multi channel set up.

It is not the same quest as just 2-channel.
Tom mentioned lobbing to me back when I had nine speakers that sounded excellent out here shining on my deck chair. - (I don't know what you call 5.1)
My Carver CT-17 can jump back and forth between 5 and stereo - maybe most do that. I never play tunes on that system so it is a mute point to me. For movie audio I need to be able to blow things up, not so much for music.

To that end, subs are not as important as good speakers in my stereo quest, but very important in the A/V.

Thanks to help from many here, I have now good stereo. =D>
I guess there is always room to improve, and most here would say my wires are my weak point.

What track are you on??


Fixed it for ya~
P0king_Emoticon.gif
P0king_Emoticon.gif (1.04 KiB) Viewed 1004 times


"Lobing" (as opposed to LOBBING, as in grenades), can occur when you have more than one speaker reproducing the SAME CHANNEL (i.e., identical sound)

Good call on asking which track we're discussing. You could add another dimension with SUB OR NO SUB~
TNRabbit
Image

From FrankieD's lips to your ears: Sunfire - a quiet box of endless power.

Sunfire TG-IV/400~7 Amp
Carver SD/A-360 CDP
Benchmark DAC-1
Sony SACD/DVD-A
Active bi-amp: Ashly XR-1001 & 2 Rane PEQ-15s
Main: HotRodded AL-IIIs
Sub: Klipsch RT-12d
Center: Sunfire CRS-3c
Surround: Sunfire CRS-3 (x 2)

OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

RIP WIlliam B. Dibble, 1948-2012. I'll miss you my friend.
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