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How do you find synergy....

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OconeeOrange

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Post Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:59 pm

Re: How do you find synergy....

HRDROKN wrote:Do you get to a point that the system becomes more revealing, in that the source material can make or break the sound?

:-k


That has bothered me since I read it.
I beleive I disagree from most who commented to it.

On another thread I posted how some tunes don't sound so good on my better junk.

To that end, is it the tunes or the equipment?

Many of my favorite tunes are from even before I was born, and that was a long time ago. :-"
As my favorites, I just adjust my equipment as I don't just want to be stuck just playing "demonstration quality" tunes just to show off my equipment.

The tunes of past days are what they are and if the equipment will not play nice with them - we must adjust the equipment as that is what we do - right??
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TNRabbit

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Post Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:44 pm

Re: How do you find synergy....

The source material can make or break the QUALITY of the SOUND, not the quality of the MUSIC. We put up with what we must for music we love~
TNRabbit
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OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

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treitz3

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Post Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:06 pm

Re: How do you find synergy....

HRDROKN wrote:Do you get to a point that the system becomes more revealing, in that the source material can make or break the sound? :-k
OconeeOrange wrote:That has bothered me since I read it.
I believe I disagree from most who commented to it.

On another thread I posted how some tunes don't sound so good on my better junk.

To that end, is it the tunes or the equipment?

Many of my favorite tunes are from even before I was born, and that was a long time ago. :-"
As my favorites, I just adjust my equipment as I don't just want to be stuck just playing "demonstration quality" tunes just to show off my equipment.

The tunes of past days are what they are and if the equipment will not play nice with them - we must adjust the equipment as that is what we do - right??


Bill, we are not saying that the tunes that are not audiophile quality are not worthy of listening too. Far from it. If that were the case, I/we wouldn't listen to 95% of what I/we listen too. HRDROKN asked a question and there were some answers that were spot on. A great system will make sub-par recordings sound like ass. It will even make recordings that previously sounded great on a lesser system sound, well.....not so good anymore. It's the nature of the beast.

He was just asking if the source material can make or break the sound. Well, that's obvious. Yes.

Does that change what we want to listen too? For some, maybe. For others, no. For many? It doesn't matter. They just want to listen to the music. This has been the case since the introduction of recorded music. It doesn't matter what medium you get it from and it doesn't matter what source or rig it comes from.....folks just want to hear the music.

I must admit [and I don't believe I have ever admitted this before] that when I evaluate a rig, component, cable or what have you that will be introduced into my rig, it must fit all of my criteria......which is seemingly endless. One of the most important criteria is the fact that whatever is introduced into the rig must play everything well. Not just the audiophile recordings. It must do well on everything from Bob Marley in his early non-studio ranshack of a building [if you could even call it that] recordings to early recordings of Little Feat to Bon Jovi's first album with the song "Runaway". It must also be able to do AC/DC, Beatles, BB King, Mic Fleetwood, Air Supply, Queensryche, Kenny Chesney and even Eminem to realistic reproductive qualities. Then it must pass all of the Telarc, Bermester, audiophile SACD's and other audiophile stuff I have with finesse, clarity, musicality and authority. My music is all over the place and I don't want a rig to shine on one thing or one genre only.

While my rig can shine incredibly well on reference albums and [truly] dynamic albums, it means nothing without the other 95% or more of music that I have at my disposal. All of the music I have, I have on a hard medium. In other words, it's mine. Many times, I have 6 or 7 copies of the same album on different mediums and with different versions and remasters. Of course I try to get the best source material I can get to achieve the most revealing results. While I will admit the "best" recording isn't always the best, it does not discount the fact that I still love the musical reproduction as I listen.

It's all a compromise. We all do it. Otherwise we would settle for nothing less than live. Can I have a better system for reference albums? Yes. Do I want it? No. Do I want a system that shines on my reference and dynamic albums as well as every other genre of music I have in my library? You bet. I'll admit, I compromised. All without altering the source at all. No EQ, no tone controls or other altering special "buttons".

That still doesn't change the fact that when the system becomes more revealing, the source material can make or break the sound.
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to a good analogue reproduction.

Robert R. - "Did you see my North Korea analogy? I should have named it Carversite.kim"
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BillD

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Post Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:41 pm

Re: How do you find synergy....

I remember a post by bob p a long time ago where he said that he couldn't stand to listen to a number of songs because his equipment was too revealing. I think I said he should just play them through a pair of 3" full range car speakers using a 10 Watt amplifier. I think Tom said it right. That music "is what it is". I would have to deprive myself of listening to music I loved growing up as a kid listening in the car because my rig got "too good for it". I think those that do epitomize snobbery.
It should sound like it isn't there!
There is a difference between hearing and listening...
Making life enjoyable through expensive electronics.
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PDR

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TFM-45

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Post Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:15 pm

Re: How do you find synergy....

When I buy a new Cd.... can hardly wait to get home and listen to it....is it music I like?....of course, I wouldnt but it if I didnt.
But there is the anticipation.....wondering what the music will "sound" like. Will it have a deep soundstage. will I be able to pinpoint the musicians and the vocalist, will it have a realistic tone....if not, then I will still listen to it, I bought it cause I like it.
But....every once in a while....I will buy a cd that is just incredible. You can get lost in it. The lights dim, and in just a few bars
you are transported to a place that is nirvana. These are the times that all my hard work has paid off....the $ spent are justified,
its everything that you could ask for and more.
I dont judge my sytem by crappy cds that I listen to even though they sound .....like shit,but listen anyway. I judge my system by the times it has taken me to places that only good gear can.

When your system takes you....you have synergy.
How you find it?....the road is different for everyone.
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elgrau

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Post Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:35 pm

Re: How do you find synergy....

Yes recording quality is a huge factor. And "modern" is not necessarily better. Just finished Keith Richards "Life" biography. He says a lot of artists went thru a "digital" period (recording each instrument separately and then digitally mixing/assembling the final product, etc., etc.) but now have come back to good old analog medium and recording the entire group/band at once to get the room acoustics and the "group dynamic" or "soul" or whatever you want to call it. I also believe that high quality recording engineers and techniques are most important as well. Case in point are most all of Elvis's recordings: done in the mid to late 50's but they are better quality recording than almost anything you hear today. Hopefully the filter of age will remove most of the shit that's just thrown together by a bunch of overly commercial groups and just leave the truly "classic" music that (like real classical music) will be beautiful and timely even 500 years from now. All the rest that was poorly recorded can just disappear....the spirit behind that kind of shit music (which is indicative of the recording quality they were willing to accept) is another reason to let it go as well. Who needs it? Another "for example" are most of the "real" bedrock country and western artists: these guys were/are real sticklers for recording "perfection" and would bounce out anyone connected with their music at the drop of a hat that fucked up even a little bit...either the musicians or recording engineers.

And Hrdrokn: that kind of stuff IS (one of) my hobbies! :lol: Advanced mathematics is truly the closest thing to REAL magic that exists. Ask BillD :lol: ! Guess that's why I named my (sideline) company "Real World Simulations". :lol:
Last edited by elgrau on Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Family room: 400 disk changer with PS Audio Digital Link III DAC; Technics SL-1100A TT. QED Quenx1 IC's from DAC & TT to Adcom GTP-602 preamp/Tuner. AudioQuest King Cobra IC's from preamp to M1.0t mk-II opt2. QED Silver Spirals 4M wires to EPI 1000’s.
Living room: AudioQuest Black Mamba 8M IC's from family room preamp to Barcus-Berry 2002R Sonic Maximizer to GlowPower Zyxt IC's to Sunfire 300x2 to Nordost 6M bi-source wires to AOS 28" MDF spherical speakers using six 8" woofers and eight 1" dome tweeters symm. arranged around the surface.
SS system: CX-995V DVD to AV-705x 5 channel amp (center/rears) & M1.0t mk-II opt2(fronts).
Garage: TLM-3600 CDP to MXR150 Receiver (pre) to TFM-42 to EPI 400 speakers.
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OconeeOrange

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Post Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:45 pm

Re: How do you find synergy....

elgrau wrote: that kind of shit music (which is indicative of the recording quality they were willing to accept) is another reason to let it go as well. Who needs it?


Me. I hope to need my Bessie Smith for a few more days.
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elgrau

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Post Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:51 pm

Re: How do you find synergy....

"Hopefully the filter of age will remove most of the shit that's just thrown together by a bunch of overly commercial groups"

OO: "Me. I hope to need my Bessie Smith for a few more days."

Yeah, OO; she does not fit into the "bunch of overly commercial groups" category!
Family room: 400 disk changer with PS Audio Digital Link III DAC; Technics SL-1100A TT. QED Quenx1 IC's from DAC & TT to Adcom GTP-602 preamp/Tuner. AudioQuest King Cobra IC's from preamp to M1.0t mk-II opt2. QED Silver Spirals 4M wires to EPI 1000’s.
Living room: AudioQuest Black Mamba 8M IC's from family room preamp to Barcus-Berry 2002R Sonic Maximizer to GlowPower Zyxt IC's to Sunfire 300x2 to Nordost 6M bi-source wires to AOS 28" MDF spherical speakers using six 8" woofers and eight 1" dome tweeters symm. arranged around the surface.
SS system: CX-995V DVD to AV-705x 5 channel amp (center/rears) & M1.0t mk-II opt2(fronts).
Garage: TLM-3600 CDP to MXR150 Receiver (pre) to TFM-42 to EPI 400 speakers.
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OconeeOrange

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Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:24 pm

Post Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:04 pm

Re: How do you find synergy....

elgrau wrote:Yeah, OO; she does not fit into the "bunch of overly commercial groups" category!


She was commercial success. More to the point is her recordings were made in the 20's and they are a little rough sounding. At best they are worse than the music you call shit. Still, along with her horn player (a teenage Louis Armstrong) I play and enjoy her often. In some cases it is not the quality of the recording process, but whether one enjoys a particular tune. I don't seek music perfection, just entertainment.
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HRDROKN

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TFM-45

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Post Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:52 pm

Re: How do you find synergy....

elgrau wrote:And Hrdrokn: that kind of stuff IS (one of) my hobbies! :lol: Advance mathematics is truly the closest thing to REAL magic that exists. Ask BillD :lol: ! Guess that's why I named my (sideline) company "Real World Simulations". :lol:


My real question then..... could I figure out how to use such a tool :-s
HRDROKN
MC-7P tube preanp, BBE2002R, Marchand XM44, TFM-35x .002, TFM-35x, M1.0t MKII .002, M500t, Silver 7t's, SDA-360 and Klipsch KLF-30's w/crites crossovers...
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elgrau

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Post Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:38 pm

Re: How do you find synergy....

Yes, a decent software package (or "app" in the current parlance...) should always be easy to operate. What would be the hardest thing (re this software sim program using his "circuit model" of the entire speaker/coil/enclosure/acoustic/speaker wire system) would be doing the "experiments"/measurements needed to quantify the parameters of your system's speaker drivers. The impedance (or the simple R/C/L's) vs freq of most of the major "high end" speaker cables could be determined and published on-line or included with the software. But I see its usefulness more as a tool for designing better speaker's (in conjunction with a recommended set of speaker wires) than as just a "speaker wire picker". One of the hard things about speaker design (I've heard...) is that it's a lot about trial and error and that takes a LOT of time and there are a LOT of different permutations of design parameters (and even more when you throw in speaker wire characteristics). If one could evaluate 100's of those combinations via software simulation before committing to a "build", then one might have a much better chance of coming up with a "more perfect" synergistic combination of speaker design and speaker wires....
Family room: 400 disk changer with PS Audio Digital Link III DAC; Technics SL-1100A TT. QED Quenx1 IC's from DAC & TT to Adcom GTP-602 preamp/Tuner. AudioQuest King Cobra IC's from preamp to M1.0t mk-II opt2. QED Silver Spirals 4M wires to EPI 1000’s.
Living room: AudioQuest Black Mamba 8M IC's from family room preamp to Barcus-Berry 2002R Sonic Maximizer to GlowPower Zyxt IC's to Sunfire 300x2 to Nordost 6M bi-source wires to AOS 28" MDF spherical speakers using six 8" woofers and eight 1" dome tweeters symm. arranged around the surface.
SS system: CX-995V DVD to AV-705x 5 channel amp (center/rears) & M1.0t mk-II opt2(fronts).
Garage: TLM-3600 CDP to MXR150 Receiver (pre) to TFM-42 to EPI 400 speakers.
<<

OconeeOrange

SILVER-7 TUBE AMP

Posts: 4478

Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:24 pm

Post Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:53 pm

Re: How do you find synergy....

elgrau wrote:Yes, a decent software package (or "app" in the current parlance...) should always be easy to operate. What would be the hardest thing (re this software sim program using his "circuit model" of the entire speaker/coil/enclosure/acoustic/speaker wire system) would be doing the "experiments"/measurements needed to quantify the parameters of your system's speaker drivers. The impedance (or the simple R/C/L's) vs freq of most of the major "high end" speaker cables could be determined and published on-line or included with the software. But I see its usefulness more as a tool for designing better speaker's (in conjunction with a recommended set of speaker wires) than as just a "speaker wire picker". One of the hard things about speaker design (I've heard...) is that it's a lot about trial and error and that takes a LOT of time and there are a LOT of different permutations of design parameters (and even more when you throw in speaker wire characteristics). If one could evaluate 100's of those combinations via software simulation before committing to a "build", then one might have a much better chance of coming up with a "more perfect" synergistic combination of speaker design and speaker wires....

You remain the man ED. =D>

Even after all the experts do their magic, the junk will end up in many different environments different from the one tested for. Having you guys around to at least narrow it all down is fun and makes the search easier.
As an example, I have better junk in my RedNeck Bar than many have, but that is not an "audiophile" type listening room. (it is a fun place) Too that end, making slight adjustments that might stand out if the system were at your house, will probably go unnoticed by me here.
This is educational and like most here, I keep trying to learn and improve my junk if just for visitors.
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Mr. M-500t

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Post Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:46 pm

Re: How do you find synergy....

I don't know why Synergy has to be relegated to audio ? I consider synergy as everyone happy in the house at the same time.................including the wife, :lol: :lol: :lol: I'll never find synergy in audio because I have better places for the Moola. I just have to be happy with what I have which I think is pretty good now, thanks to BillD and my thrifty shopping abilities ! :D
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