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lenny

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Joined: Sun May 20, 2007 4:05 pm

Location: new rochelle , new york

Post Sat May 26, 2007 9:17 am

help

HELLO
just bought 3 vienna accoustics berg speakers..what i like to do is connect 1 of them to my tfm-15 as a center speaker and 2 of them to my
tfm-25 as front speakers.. then i would have my av-64 for rear speakers
need help chooseing rear speakers.where would i connect a sub wooffer thank you..lenny

ps.. all are connected to my ct-17
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treitz3

User avatar

"Julian"
"Julian"

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Location: The tube lair in Charlotte, NC

Post Sat May 26, 2007 9:37 am

Been a while since I screwed around with surround, but I have a question back at you first. Do you want to use a LFE, line level or speaker level connection.

Your crossovers and connections will make a big difference sometimes as to the end result [what hits your ears]. That's why I'm asking.
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to a good analogue reproduction.

Robert R. - "Did you see my North Korea analogy? I should have named it Carversite.kim"
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lenny

Newbie 50+

Posts: 56

Joined: Sun May 20, 2007 4:05 pm

Location: new rochelle , new york

Post Sat May 26, 2007 9:54 am

hello
i am totally new at this . i have had a pioneer system for years with 5.1 sound.. and i just bought thim system at a estate sale for $300.00
which is a ct-17 , tlm-3600 cd, tdr-2400 cassette, av-64 amp,tfm-15 amp,
and a tfm-25 amp..with all manuals and boxes good deal .. i also have a page from the last owner of how to connect all system.. i left all buttons as is from when i heard the system at last owners house.. this week i ran into another great deal where i bought 3 berg vienna acoustics speakers for $650.00 with tax .. they sell at 500 each.. but i bought them because they sound great and look good..
thank you..lenny
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Mr. M-500t

(pair of) SILVER-7 TUBE AMPs

Posts: 6211

Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:00 pm

Post Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:11 pm

Re: help

lenny wrote:HELLO
just bought 3 vienna accoustics berg speakers..what i like to do is connect 1 of them to my tfm-15 as a center speaker and 2 of them to my
tfm-25 as front speakers.. then i would have my av-64 for rear speakers
need help chooseing rear speakers.where would i connect a sub wooffer thank you..lenny

ps.. all are connected to my ct-17


Your better off to stick with the same type of speaker on surround Lenny.
You want them all to be Timber Matched.
I like to run my Sub's directly from the Preamp outs and then from the Sub outs to the front Amp inputs.
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BillD

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(pair of) SILVER-7 TUBE AMPs

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Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:29 pm

Location: The west's most mid-western town, Scottsdale, Arizona

Post Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:45 pm

Re: help

Only "good" subwoofers offer line in to and line out from the subwoofer - something you want to look for. I just piecked up a True Subwoofer Mk.II just because it works that way. I wanted to run it in my office, where I only have one pre-amp out - so it goes to the sub. I have an M-400 cube sitting on top of the sub that drives my left and right speakers. So, if you're looking for a sub and don't have LFE out, this is a good option to have.
It should sound like it isn't there!
There is a difference between hearing and listening...
Making life enjoyable through expensive electronics.
_________________
Carver: C-4000 & C-1 preamps, PSC-60 preamp/tuner, TX-11a tuner, M-400 (2), C-500, M-500, M-500t, M-500t Mk.II, A-500x, AL-III loudspeakers (2 pr.)
Sunfire:Theater Grand III processor, Ultimate Receiver, Cinema Grand Signature 400 ~ seven, True Subwoofer Mk. II, D-10 Subwoofer
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Dreamer

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SILVER-7t

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Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:17 am

Location: Washington, NC

Post Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:55 pm

Re: help

Lenny,

If your pioneer has "preamp outputs" for the rears and sub as well as speaker outs, you can do it this way:

Hook up your source components to the Carver preamp.

Connect the Pioneer to the Carver pre by running the Tape Loop outputs to any line-level input on the Pioneer (I like to use DVD or CD inputs)

Hook your best Carver amp to the "preamp outputs" of the Carver pre, and run you rmain speakers from this.

Hook your other amps to the Pioneer through it's "preamp outs" for Center and Rears, and then hook the respective speakers to the respective amps. If your subwoofer is self-powered, hook it to the pioneer via the LFE preamp-level outputs.

Essentially you are using the Pioneer receiver as a surround processor. You're not going to use it's speaker-level outputs, but rather power the Carver amps via it's pre-outs (if it has them) This will give you much better sound, but it will ultimately be limited by the quality of the circuits in the Pioneer (which are probably WAY more noisy than the Carver gear).

If your pioneer doesn't have "preamp outputs) for Rear, Center, and Sub, then you STILL can use the Carver amps, but you're going to have to buy some additional gadgets. You need to get "high-level to line level adapters", and hook them into the respective speaker outputs on the Pioneer, and then hook these adapters to the Carver amps. These little doodads will take that "speaker level" output, and attenuate it down to something approximating line level. CArver used to make a VERY good one called a "Wide Band Z-coupler". I use one in my current setup for my Center speaker. I don't think any "high end" audio companies are still making such a box, but I've seen them in Car Audio shops, and they can usually be had for pretty reasonaable prices. But this "adapter" solution is sort of a temporary solution--it won't sound the best, and really should only be used until you can get a proper Surround processor (Lexicon units can be had used for VERY reasonable prices on EBAY and Audiogon.)

I'm currently using a similar setup, but with a Sony Receiver as a surround processor...

If you want, I can draw a picture and post it, to make this more clear...

--Richard
.....HT Rig • Sony STR-DG600 Receiver • Carver M-500t • Sony BDP-S1 • Sony DVP-NS3100ES • Apple Airport Express •
..............................• Martin Logan Scenarios, Logos • Realistic Minimus 7's • Velodyne F-1500b •

2 Ch. Rig • Carver C-4000t • Silver 7t's • Krell KAV-300i • Oppo DV-981HD • Benchmark DAC1-USB • MacBook Pro 17", iTunes •
......• Technics SL-1350 turntable with Sumiko headshell, leads, and Bluepoint cartridge • Martin Logan Sequels •

.........................................................-+-Click Here to see my system-+-
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OBI56

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SILVER-7 TUBE AMP

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Post Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:57 pm

Re: help

Richard, why would he want to re-use his Pioneer? The CT-17 has a Dolby Pro Logic 5-Channel surround sound processor built right in and has all the pre-amp outputs that he needs already. The TFM-25 would hook up to the Front preamp outputs, the TFM-15 (in bridged mode) to the Centre preamp outputs and the AV-64 to the Rear preamp outputs. It also has a pair or Remote Amp outputs which could be used to power either a power amp and an unpowered subwoofer or directly to a powered subwoofer's line level inputs.

Image

Image
Why let facts or common sense get in the way of your opinions.
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lenny

Newbie 50+

Posts: 56

Joined: Sun May 20, 2007 4:05 pm

Location: new rochelle , new york

Post Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:10 am

Re: help

hi
thankyou very much =D> =D>
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Dreamer

User avatar

SILVER-7t

Posts: 1616

Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:17 am

Location: Washington, NC

Post Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:05 pm

Re: help

OBI56 wrote:Richard, why would he want to re-use his Pioneer?


It depends on how old the Pioneer is. If it is relatively new (less than 5 years old) it probably has DTS, and some of the newer Dolby Surround modes, which the CT-17 does not have. If hes using it for HT, I assume his primary source is going to be DVDs, and he can run the digital audio outputs of a DVD player into the Pioneer for true surround decoding.

OBI56 wrote:The CT-17 has a Dolby Pro Logic 5-Channel surround sound processor built right in and has all the pre-amp outputs that he needs already.


Yes, he could do that, but like I stated above, the CT-17 does not do DTS decoding (which is MUCH better for most applications, especially concert videos) and since its so old, it doens't have most of the Dolby Surround modes which are currently used on DVD soundtracks. Although the CT-17 will make "synthesized surround" from stereo inputs, it's nowhere near as realistic sounding and balanced as true modern Dolby surround modes.

Sure it's not necessarily the most elegant solution, and the noise introduced by the Pioneer will degrade the sound somewhat, but it will probably give much more accruate representations of modern Dolby Surround modes. It has been my experience that most Carver gear that has "Dolby Surround" modes are actually worse-sounding that most mid- to high-end consumer-grade receivers, at least for most non-audiophile movie soundtracks.

I've never owned a CT-17, but I did own a C-20v which had a similar "Dolby Surround" processor, and I found that when that circuit was engaged, it added a lot of grain to the sound, and made the main front speakers sound pretty hashy. For strict 2-channel, it was a pretty sweet preamp, but as a surround pre/pro, it was fair to middlin'...

The option I offered was designed to give him the best-sounding surround presentation, while still maintaining good 2-channel sound as well. I know it's complicated and convoluted, and uses a lot of interconnects and loops, but IMO, it will probably sound better for surround than the more-than-one-decade-old Dolby Surround circuits in the CT-17.

Of course, YMMV...

--Richard
.....HT Rig • Sony STR-DG600 Receiver • Carver M-500t • Sony BDP-S1 • Sony DVP-NS3100ES • Apple Airport Express •
..............................• Martin Logan Scenarios, Logos • Realistic Minimus 7's • Velodyne F-1500b •

2 Ch. Rig • Carver C-4000t • Silver 7t's • Krell KAV-300i • Oppo DV-981HD • Benchmark DAC1-USB • MacBook Pro 17", iTunes •
......• Technics SL-1350 turntable with Sumiko headshell, leads, and Bluepoint cartridge • Martin Logan Sequels •

.........................................................-+-Click Here to see my system-+-
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OBI56

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SILVER-7 TUBE AMP

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Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:52 am

Location: You ... OFF MY PLANET!

Post Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:37 pm

Re: help

Thanks for clearing that up for me Richard. I have a fairly recent Sony HT system in the living room for movies and it has both DTS and EX modes but I have never used either of those modes for listening to movies; just set it to regular Dolby Surround 5.1 mode and have always been satisfied with the sound. I have no idea what those 2 other modes sound like and can't be bothered to switch them when a DVD is recorded under them, so I just assumed that only devoted movie watchers would want to go to all that fuss every time they switch DVDs. The HT setup is more for when the kids come over and want to watch a movie than for me; my true passion is 2 channel music listening on my dedicated systems.
Why let facts or common sense get in the way of your opinions.
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Dreamer

User avatar

SILVER-7t

Posts: 1616

Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:17 am

Location: Washington, NC

Post Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:42 pm

Re: help

OBI56 wrote:Thanks for clearing that up for me Richard. I have a fairly recent Sony HT system in the living room for movies and it has both DTS and EX modes but I have never used either of those modes for listening to movies; just set it to regular Dolby Surround 5.1 mode and have always been satisfied with the sound.

If you have never heard a DVD with a DTS soundtrack played through a true DTS processor, you really are missing out on the joys of good 5.1. Standard Dolby Surround is pretty compressed, ESPECIALY on SD-DVDs. The DTS tracks are also compressed (to fit them on the media) but the compression algorithms for DTS are much less "lossy". TheDolby 5.1 and DTS sountracks on the Eagles' "Hell Freezes Over" concert DVD are like two completely different recordings, with the DTS being, simply put, the tits. It's as close to BluRay sound as you're going to get from regular DVDs....

OBI56 wrote:I have no idea what those 2 other modes sound like and can't be bothered to switch them when a DVD is recorded u
nder them, so I just assumed that only devoted movie watchers would want to go to all that fuss every time they switch DVDs. The HT setup is more for when the kids come over and want to watch a movie than for me; my true passion is 2 channel music listening on my dedicated systems.

If you've never switched it over, you actually don't know just HOW much of a PITA it is. The levels for the FR&L, RR&L, and especially the subwoofer are COMPLETELY different in DTS than they are in Dolby Surround 5.1, and switching to DTS required a complete re-calibration of the levels of your 5.1 setup. I've done this with the "auto-setup" on my Sony to pretty good effect, but everyone needs to leave the room for 10 minutes due to the hideous test tones it uses. I always end up tweeking the levels manually anyway, so now I just have noted were they should be, and I go in and manually readjust when I switch to DTS (on discs where it is available). Sure this is a pretty big pain in the tuchas, especially if you've got guests over for "movie night", but believe me, it is COMPLETELY worth the time. Like I said above, if you've never heard a well-dialed in 5.1 rig running a DTS signal, you are missing a LOT of what a good 5.1 HT experience can be.

Man, I can't wait to get a Sunfire preamp, Velodyne SMS-1, and a Logitec Harmony 1000 remote, so I can just program these settings in to presets, and switch back and forth at the touch of a button.

And let me tell you, when it comes to the sound on Blu Ray discs, DTS is astounding. The soundtracks on BluRay are completely uncompressed, and DTS on BLuRay is mind-blowing, even with my crappy Sony HT receiver serving as the surround processor. We rented a copy of "Across the Universe" on BluRay from NetFlix last week, and it was the best movie sound I've heard on my rig so far.

--Richard
.....HT Rig • Sony STR-DG600 Receiver • Carver M-500t • Sony BDP-S1 • Sony DVP-NS3100ES • Apple Airport Express •
..............................• Martin Logan Scenarios, Logos • Realistic Minimus 7's • Velodyne F-1500b •

2 Ch. Rig • Carver C-4000t • Silver 7t's • Krell KAV-300i • Oppo DV-981HD • Benchmark DAC1-USB • MacBook Pro 17", iTunes •
......• Technics SL-1350 turntable with Sumiko headshell, leads, and Bluepoint cartridge • Martin Logan Sequels •

.........................................................-+-Click Here to see my system-+-
<<

OBI56

User avatar

SILVER-7 TUBE AMP

Posts: 4964

Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:52 am

Location: You ... OFF MY PLANET!

Post Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:32 am

Re: help

I tried it ONCE and I got frustrated that it should take more than 5 seconds to do so that I just gave up. Its bad enough resetting everything after my son plays a 2 channel DVD and forgets to set it back. I don't have a BluRay player and don't plan to for at least a few years if ever and my TV is just your standard 36" CRT in standard resolution. Movies are just not that important to me to spend several thousand dollars on a new setup for them and what I have now suits me just fine.

In this day and age of super-sophisticated HT gear, things should work without ANY need to fiddle or to even push a button. The receiver should detect the DVD disk mode automatically and set itself up without any user intervention without costing an arm and a leg. When I'm in the mood to watch a movie, I just want to pop the DVD in, sit down and be entertained; not spend half an hour setting things up.

Just my point of view on the whole HT subject.
Why let facts or common sense get in the way of your opinions.
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rudykazoodie

Newbie

Posts: 3

Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:33 pm

Post Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:03 pm

Re: help

Kudos OBI56!!!

Today's HT processors are extremely intuitive! I too love the fact that it's no longer a series of macros or algorithm's to go from a disc encoded in dolby surround to EX. It just detects it for you and lets you hit the throttle, I mean, volume.

Ok, I have a question to pose to all of you Carver fans. Just to qualify me belonging on this forum, I bought my first piece of Carver (M1.5) back in 1980-ish. Since then I've managed to compile (4) Silver-9t's, (2) TFM-35's, (1) AV-64, (1) CT-17, (1) CT-29v "sent my CT-17 in for service and it fell off the face of the earth somewhere around Woodinville", and a (DTL-something-or-other ) which I no longer have.

So, my question is, WHAT ON EARTH is a Carver TS-P80?????? Is it the worlds largest center channel speaker??? I stumbled onto one the other day in a thrift store. Naturally I bought it, but I have no idea what to do with it. This sucker is HUGE! Please feel free to send me an email, anybody. (rudy_kazoodie@yahoo.com)

Thanks!
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OBI56

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SILVER-7 TUBE AMP

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Location: You ... OFF MY PLANET!

Post Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:17 pm

Re: help

That's an easy one rudykazoodie (only cause we came across it for the first time just a few months ago).

Non-powered (passive) subwoofer, It measures 48" wide, 29" deep and 11 3/4" high. It weighs approximatly 115 lbs and is part of a sub/sat system that was marketed in the early days of HT in 92 and 93. Sold for about $1k back then.
Why let facts or common sense get in the way of your opinions.
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rudykazoodie

Newbie

Posts: 3

Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:33 pm

Post Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:41 pm

Re: help

Thanks OBI,

One more thing. It has about a 1" dome tweeter smack-dab betwixt the woofers. Could this have been someone's idea of a practical joke, attempting to turn it in to Shrek-size center speaker :shock: ? Also, this was just about the ONLY hit that came up on a Yahoo search, any direction you could give me a kick in the pants towards to find the info that you folks came upon? BTW, thanks very much for responding to my post so dern quickly.
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