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Scrap it or keep it??

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icravcarver

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Location: Liverpool, NY

Post Wed May 28, 2008 9:04 pm

Scrap it or keep it??

Hey guys, you all have been down this road before, and I am sure it has been asked before. I am close to achieving audio bliss for my 2 channel Carver rig (YEAH - RIGHT!!! 8) ) and am considering a couple of options for my HT rig. (5.1 currently and all I need!!)

Currently I have a Yamaha RX-V795a ("a" is for Americas version I believe) - 85 wpc / 5 channels @ 8 ohms, a Toshiba D-R400 DVD recorder, Polk Audio 5a's fronts (replaced my Klipsch KSB-2.1's), Klipsch KSC-C1 center channel, Paradigm PDR-10 sub, and some KLH-80's for rear surrounds. (I know, I know - I'm also working on speaker upgrades also - just have to watch out for wife factor - I love her, so I don't want to get rid of her yet!)

The Yammie has outputs so I can send signals to external amplifiers if I so desire. I have been toying around with either buying some additional amps to get a little more power and use the current reciever as a HT preamp. Option 2 is to replace the reciever with a better one. NOTE: I will definitely look at used equipment, as I am not currently into the 7.1 (or even 9.1 for that matter). It is just overkill and too much for the room I have to work with. And as always, budget is always a key.

My thoughts are I can add an amp here and an amp there when my funds allow, or do it all at once with a single receiver upgrade. My HT rig is obviously not as important as my 2 channel rig, but it would be nice to have a decent HT rig. (I said decent, not TOP of the LINE!)

Just picking your collective brains. :-s
OCCD claims another victim!!

Carver Gear: MAIN SYSTEM: TFM-55; C-16; SD/A-490t; TD-1770; BEDROOM: HR-772
Non Carver Gear: MAIN SYSTEM: Dual CS-530 TT w/Ortofon Super OM10; POLK SDA-1C's; Phillips CDR-775 CD Burner; BSR EQ-300; BEDROOM: T.B.A.

"I may be poor, but I am rich in sound!!"
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RichP714

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Post Wed May 28, 2008 9:13 pm

Re: Scrap it or keep it??

I'm doing the same thing with my Denon AVR 982, just using it as a preamp; I may be biased then, but my take is if you like the input section and tuner, keep it and use the pre outs to feed separate amps....at least one for the fronts. You might like it well enough to combine your 2 channel and HT rigs.
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icravcarver

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Location: Liverpool, NY

Post Wed May 28, 2008 9:23 pm

Re: Scrap it or keep it??

Rich - I have thought about sending the signal from my Yammie to the Aux inputs on my HR-772 to give it a whirl. I mean, technically, 85 watts is plenty big enough for my surrounds (as they are right on top of where we sit - man does my room suck!) I may try it out one day when wife and kids are away so I can play. The only problem I see is now my living room won't be big enough for my HT rig AND my 2 channel rig!
OCCD claims another victim!!

Carver Gear: MAIN SYSTEM: TFM-55; C-16; SD/A-490t; TD-1770; BEDROOM: HR-772
Non Carver Gear: MAIN SYSTEM: Dual CS-530 TT w/Ortofon Super OM10; POLK SDA-1C's; Phillips CDR-775 CD Burner; BSR EQ-300; BEDROOM: T.B.A.

"I may be poor, but I am rich in sound!!"
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Rainman

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Post Wed May 28, 2008 9:32 pm

Re: Scrap it or keep it??

Here is how I handled a similar process at my place. I bought some Carver amps to use in our surround set up and that is where it all started. The amps I bought were a big improvement over the power of the integrated processor. So I figured since the amps were that good let's go with it. To make a long story short. I have since done away with the entire surround set up. I discovered that with a good system set up properly there is no need for your ears to hear all of the fuzz created by five or more surround speakers conflicting with each other and your ears because they all face each other and point to the center of your seating area. I ended up with all Carver components, Linn speakers, and PS audio cables. When you turn on the Sonic Holography feature you will hear sounds that seem to come from behind you just like surround except your ears don't get fuzzed by the sounds running through each other on their way to your ears. Bottom line is much much cleaner. and pleasing sound. People that are at my place will actually look all around the room to find the rest of my speakers. Sometimes they do not believe me that I only have 2 channel and I just laugh. You will be so pleased with the Carver amps! Don't be surprised if you end up doing the same thing I did. That is my two cents worth. I hope my crazy idea did not spin you out too badly. Most people will think that's B.S. however they will say that without actually listening to the reason I sent my surround down the road......... :-"
Question: Do you know why turds are tapered on the ends? Answer: So your asshole doesn't slam shut..

Carver- SDA490t, SDA450, 2 TFM45's, TFM15, CT23, CT28v, CT27v, Linn Kaber speakers, Sunfire crm2's, PS Audio Statement speaker cables and I/C's, A.P.C. power
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icravcarver

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Location: Liverpool, NY

Post Wed May 28, 2008 9:43 pm

Re: Scrap it or keep it??

Rainman - are you only running one set of main speakers? My HR-772 has capability for A&B (so long as they are not less than 8 ohm each). Because, technically I could put it all through my receiver, put my Paradigm floor standers for "A" and my Polk 5a's for "B" - at the back of the room - hook up my Paradigm sub. OOOHHH you bastards! [-X What a way to throw a wrench into the system. :D
OCCD claims another victim!!

Carver Gear: MAIN SYSTEM: TFM-55; C-16; SD/A-490t; TD-1770; BEDROOM: HR-772
Non Carver Gear: MAIN SYSTEM: Dual CS-530 TT w/Ortofon Super OM10; POLK SDA-1C's; Phillips CDR-775 CD Burner; BSR EQ-300; BEDROOM: T.B.A.

"I may be poor, but I am rich in sound!!"
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Dreamer

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Post Wed May 28, 2008 9:48 pm

Re: Scrap it or keep it??

Having done this several ways myself (with several different receivers as preamps), I can tell you that no matter how good you think you receiver is, a dedicated HT preamp/processor will sound a thousand times better if you are driving external amps.

I know that many mid-range and high-end receivers have preamp-level outs for driving dedicated amps, and some of them sound pretty good, but I have never hear a receiver functioning as a preamp that sounds as good as a dedicated HT pre/pro. And I include Sunfire in that--the Sunfire Receivers are FANTASTIC, but as preamps, they are not nearly as good as the Sunfire pre/pro units.

That said, if you're looking to keep costs down, I'd suggest either getting a Sunfire receiver and calling it done, or looking for a good used HT pre/pro, like an earlier Sunfire, a Classe', a Krell, a Lexicon, or something like that. If you are looking for something to do 5.1, and you aren't interested in hooking up 5.1 or 7.1 analogue inputs to it from DVD or SACD player, they you can go for one of the high-end units that is 5 or 6 years old. The Sunfire TGP-2 can be often be had for under $600, and it's a REALLY good pre/pro. Couple one of those with a stack of Carver or Sunfire amps, and you'd be in business for some serious HT action... :D

A Classe SSP-25 or 30 can be had for under $800, the SSP-300 for around a grand, and they are VERY quiet preamps--great for 2-channel listening and full of features for HT.

The Lexicon MC-1 can often be had for under $700, the MC-4 is usually in the under-$1500 range, and they are also both VERY clean and quiet, with loads of HT features. Lexicon pretty much started the whole multi-channel revolution in the high-end, and they always get great reviews.

One of the real sleepers in the audio world is Emotiva. I know a few folks who have Emotiva gear, and they seem to REALY like it. This brand carries a LOT of bang for the buck, with features usually only found in brands costing 2 or 3 times as much, and the build quality and performance is, by all reports, as good (if not better) than most "high-end" brands. The Emotiva LMC-1 is an amazing little pre/pro, with 7.1 capabilites, a half-dozen different Dolby modes (including DTS and Neo6, 7.1 outputs AND inputs, and a built-in 25watt 2-channel amp, for running a set of remote smaller speakers (like for outdoors on the deck, or in another room for "background sound"). This unit is discontinued, but you can read about it on Emotiva's archives, here:Emotiva LMC-1 You can usually pick these up for under $500.

It would be a lot easier to recommend a good solution for you if you let us know what your budget is though...

I hope this helps in your decision.

--Richard
.....HT Rig • Sony STR-DG600 Receiver • Carver M-500t • Sony BDP-S1 • Sony DVP-NS3100ES • Apple Airport Express •
..............................• Martin Logan Scenarios, Logos • Realistic Minimus 7's • Velodyne F-1500b •

2 Ch. Rig • Carver C-4000t • Silver 7t's • Krell KAV-300i • Oppo DV-981HD • Benchmark DAC1-USB • MacBook Pro 17", iTunes •
......• Technics SL-1350 turntable with Sumiko headshell, leads, and Bluepoint cartridge • Martin Logan Sequels •

.........................................................-+-Click Here to see my system-+-
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icravcarver

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Post Wed May 28, 2008 9:57 pm

Re: Scrap it or keep it??

Budget is subjective. I was thinking in the $600 or $700 range for the instant gratification method. If I do separates, and spread it out over time (and 1 year or so would not be unreasonable for me since I don't mind what I have currently, just thinking about the different aspects), it could be around $1000 or so.

I saw some Theater Grands go up not to long ago. Was strongly considering one of them - I think it was a TG III (I have to brush up on my Sunfire knowledge!) I think it ended up going for around $800 or so. I thought it was reasonable, just not in my deck of cards at that exact moment.
OCCD claims another victim!!

Carver Gear: MAIN SYSTEM: TFM-55; C-16; SD/A-490t; TD-1770; BEDROOM: HR-772
Non Carver Gear: MAIN SYSTEM: Dual CS-530 TT w/Ortofon Super OM10; POLK SDA-1C's; Phillips CDR-775 CD Burner; BSR EQ-300; BEDROOM: T.B.A.

"I may be poor, but I am rich in sound!!"
<<

Rainman

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Post Wed May 28, 2008 10:07 pm

Re: Scrap it or keep it??

Icravecarver, that is correct. I am only running two Linn speakers and a sub. I discovered that I did not need and did not like the quality of surround sound. We tried many combinations surround gear and in my opinion you just can't get the sound quality I have now. Once I got the linn speakers and hooked them up to my Carver gear it was amazing. I still have the 3 dimensional sound of surround. While watching movies you will actually swear that there are still surround speakers behind you, but it is truly only two channel. The surround gear can not even begin to come close to the clarity as well as delivering a real true soundstage in music applications. I know most people wont' believe me, but bring someone over to my place and watch them turn around and look behind them to see what kind of surround speakers are back there....
Question: Do you know why turds are tapered on the ends? Answer: So your asshole doesn't slam shut..

Carver- SDA490t, SDA450, 2 TFM45's, TFM15, CT23, CT28v, CT27v, Linn Kaber speakers, Sunfire crm2's, PS Audio Statement speaker cables and I/C's, A.P.C. power
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icravcarver

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Post Wed May 28, 2008 10:14 pm

Re: Scrap it or keep it??

That is awesome. I definitely will have to try it. Will have to wait for a day when I can have entire day for myself and move my 2 channel rig into the living room (not too far a move - connected to my CPU room). The only problem is that if I end up doing this route then I won't have my rig behind me when I am chatting with all of you guys. (Right now, my rig is behind me with SH on and sounding as 3 dimensional as ever.) Also - won't be able to listen as loud as I normally do at night, because the living room has a large opening to the hall that leads upstairs where the rats are sleepin' :(
OCCD claims another victim!!

Carver Gear: MAIN SYSTEM: TFM-55; C-16; SD/A-490t; TD-1770; BEDROOM: HR-772
Non Carver Gear: MAIN SYSTEM: Dual CS-530 TT w/Ortofon Super OM10; POLK SDA-1C's; Phillips CDR-775 CD Burner; BSR EQ-300; BEDROOM: T.B.A.

"I may be poor, but I am rich in sound!!"
<<

gdb

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Post Thu May 29, 2008 12:26 am

Re: Scrap it or keep it??

Hi, I've got a somewhat related question for those in the know about HT. Can regular un-shielded speakers be re-fitted with shielding, and how close is too close for unshielded speakers to be in relation to the display screen. Is the distance required different for different types:CRT LCD Plasma etc. ? I'm still suffering along with the two tinny little speaks built into my old POS CRT TV , but plan to go 50" plasma before the NFL hits the field again! :? gdb
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OBI56

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Post Thu May 29, 2008 1:10 am

Re: Scrap it or keep it??

GDB, there are several ways that speakers can be magnetically sheilded. They can be sheilded internally by placing a metal cap over the magnet structure as will as lining the speaker box with metallic sheilding (I believe that you can actually use Dynamat for this very purpose) or by having cast aluminium cabinets.

More realistically, magnetic fields decrease with increasing distance and with a CRT this is very easy to gauge by eye. Starting from a few feet distance from 1 side of the CRT and with something fairly static like a test signal (a black grid on a white background is best) like you find on some DVDs, slowly move the speaker closer to the screen while watching it carefully for any signs of distortion (vertical lines bowing). The point where the image starts changing is the closest limit that you can have that particular speaker to that particular CRT. When you find that point, move the speaker away an inch or 2 (or more if you like) adn repeat the exercize with the other speaker on the other side.

If you are not sure if speaker is magnetically sheilded or not, it is always best to start from a few feet away and move closer than to stick it right next to the CRT right away. In the past, speakers with very powerful magnets could permanently distort the image and even leave purple splotches on a CRT. Many newer CRTs have a built-in degaussing circuit that gets activated each time you turn the TV on which is, in most cases, able to fix this problem. Before the advent of auto-degaussing, you had to call in the TV repair man to come in wiht his degaussign coil to try and fix your screen. Unless you absolutely need to have the speakers right up against the sides of the TV, magnetically sheilded speakers are not really necessary. LCDs and Plasmas are not as suceptible to this phenomenon but I would still proceed with caution as described above if you are not sure about speaker sheilding.

Back in the olden days (before LCDs) lots of people with kids learned that even fridge magnets could cause the dreaded purple splotches. I remember that people in the know would simply turn the TV off wait a minute or 2 and turn it back on and usually the problem would dissappear and if it didn't, cycling through the whole process a few more times would clear it right up. But I also remember panicked moms calling the (unscrupulous) TV repairman who woudl tell them to leave it on until they arrived who would then turn it off, go through the whole degaussing coil ritual (with the TV off of course which actually didn't do anything at all), turn the TV back on to show that problem was gone and charge them $50 for the service call!!! That is one of the main reasons that there are hardly any real TV repairman out there who actually make service calls anymore.

So, these days, with newer TVs magnetic sheilding is more of a marketing buzzword from the past than a mandatory feature.
Why let facts or common sense get in the way of your opinions.
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gdb

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Post Thu May 29, 2008 4:10 am

Re: Scrap it or keep it??

Thanks OB, I had feeling that CRTs were the most susceptible but wasn't quite sure.
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OBI56

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Post Thu May 29, 2008 9:56 am

Re: Scrap it or keep it??

What I was basically trying ot say is; if you see the picture distort at the edge, the speaker is too close
Why let facts or common sense get in the way of your opinions.
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gdb

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Post Thu May 29, 2008 12:12 pm

Re: Scrap it or keep it??

OBI56 wrote:What I was basically trying ot say is; if you see the picture distort at the edge, the speaker is too close



OB, even I, yet another village idiot, was able to grasp what you were trying to convey. I might have just come up with a way to expedite my wife's coming to the conclusion that we do indeed,
require a new television! Dewey,Cheatam and Howe \:D/
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frankieD

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Post Thu May 29, 2008 12:21 pm

Re: Scrap it or keep it??

My experience is similar. I had a Harmon Kardon (highly thought of) AV receiver and I was using it as a Pre with Carver amps. I was happy until I got Sunfire TG III. Man what a difference. I think Dreamer hit the nail on the head. You need to decide if you want HT or 2 channel. I will tell you the Sunfire is a GREAT 2 channel pre as well as HT and I got my TT back too. They are coming down in price and I think in the long run you will be better off with what you really want. Take a little time its worth the wait.

Just my .02.

Frank.
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