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TG-IV downside?

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RichP714

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Post Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:23 am

TG-IV downside?

Just got a TG-IV to replace the Denon receiver that I was mostly using as a preamp. If there's a downside here, it's that I WAS using the Denon's center channel amp, and now I can't.....looks like I'll have to add a 6th M-500t, or has anybody tried phantom center?

Also, with side axis outputs, that's a 7th M-500t ;)

And, from the manual, there's no distance setup for the subwoofer channel. The sub I'm planning to build has a significant group delay, so i was planning on setting my sub distance at or near max on the Denon, hoping to get a better blend in timing between it and the front channels. I DO have an SMS-1, and MAYBE it's phase adjustment will do the trick....time will tell.
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tfm75

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Post Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:28 am

Re: TG-IV downside?

Congrats Rich

How about some pics. \:D/ \:D/

I don't have an answer about the sub but rabbit runs one off his so maybe get with him for some pointers.
Between FrankieD and I we have logged in over 12,000 miles going and coming from Carverfest's. Don't let the miles in between play with your mind. Get over it, jump on a plane get to the fest and have a great time !
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RichP714

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Post Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:40 am

Re: TG-IV downside?

tfm75 wrote:Congrats Rich

How about some pics. \:D/ \:D/

I don't have an answer about the sub but rabbit runs one off his so maybe get with him for some pointers.
I just won the auction, so the unit isn't here yet; plus the amps, etc are on the counter top of the bar downstairs; I just got some rack rails and I'm building a rack into the entertainment center holes. I'll post pics when I get it installed ;)
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BillD

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Post Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:06 pm

Re: TG-IV downside?

Rich, you're right about the sub distance, but with a continuously variable phase and sub gain, you ought to be able to blend it in seamlessly.
It should sound like it isn't there!
There is a difference between hearing and listening...
Making life enjoyable through expensive electronics.
_________________
Carver: C-4000 & C-1 preamps, PSC-60 preamp/tuner, TX-11a tuner, M-400 (2), C-500, M-500, M-500t, M-500t Mk.II, A-500x, AL-III loudspeakers (2 pr.)
Sunfire:Theater Grand III processor, Ultimate Receiver, Cinema Grand Signature 400 ~ seven, True Subwoofer Mk. II, D-10 Subwoofer
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frankieD

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Post Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:58 pm

Re: TG-IV downside?

Rich, as I understand your post,you will nedd at least 1 more Carver amp and possibly 2 more.

WHERE IS THE "DOWNSIDE", I just don't see it?

Good luck, you will love the Sunfire. I'm sure of that.
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OBI56

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Post Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:54 pm

Re: TG-IV downside?

RichP, you can eliminate the problem by going for 2 subs and placing them close to or under your main speakers. From what I've been reading, 1 sub just doesn't cut it anymore .... O:)
Why let facts or common sense get in the way of your opinions.
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RichP714

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Post Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:16 pm

Re: TG-IV downside?

OBI56 wrote:RichP, you can eliminate the problem by going for 2 subs and placing them close to or under your main speakers. From what I've been reading, 1 sub just doesn't cut it anymore .... O:)
Yes, stereo subs ;)
The 'problem' (in quotes because I don't know yet if it is) is that the sonotube/acoustic bass canon has a large group delay...I've only heard them once, at an outdoor concert in Okinawa, and while they would breathe for you with the impact they had, they weren't 'tight'. I was thinking that with the Denon, I could tell the processor that the sub was much farther than it actually was, and it would delay the rest of the channels accordingly; making up some of the group delay....no such choice with the TG-IV.

Again, the SMS-1 phase adjust might be the ticket, I just don't know yet
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RichP714

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Post Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:18 pm

Re: TG-IV downside?

frankieD wrote:Rich, as I understand your post,you will nedd at least 1 more Carver amp and possibly 2 more.

WHERE IS THE "DOWNSIDE", I just don't see it?

Good luck, you will love the Sunfire. I'm sure of that.
;) yes, I'll need two more....I kind of meant the 'downside' thing facetiously
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BillD

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Post Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:27 pm

Re: TG-IV downside?

I see your problem. You'll be multiple wavelengths behind (not just < 1). You could start at the closest speaker (probably either the center or the surrounds) and set that at 0. for instance if your center is 10'2" away make that zero. Then if your mains are 11'5" away, make them 1'3", etc. Then, play with the zero point (and the associated numbers) until they sync within a wavelength of the sonotube, and use the phase for the fine adjustment.
It should sound like it isn't there!
There is a difference between hearing and listening...
Making life enjoyable through expensive electronics.
_________________
Carver: C-4000 & C-1 preamps, PSC-60 preamp/tuner, TX-11a tuner, M-400 (2), C-500, M-500, M-500t, M-500t Mk.II, A-500x, AL-III loudspeakers (2 pr.)
Sunfire:Theater Grand III processor, Ultimate Receiver, Cinema Grand Signature 400 ~ seven, True Subwoofer Mk. II, D-10 Subwoofer
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RichP714

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Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:12 pm

Post Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:34 pm

Re: TG-IV downside?

BillD wrote:I see your problem. You'll be multiple wavelengths behind (not just < 1). You could start at the closest speaker (probably either the center or the surrounds) and set that at 0. for instance if your center is 10'2" away make that zero. Then if your mains are 11'5" away, make them 1'3", etc. Then, play with the zero point (and the associated numbers) until they sync within a wavelength of the sonotube, and use the phase for the fine adjustment.
That sounds like a plan Bill, thanks
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BillD

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Post Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:35 pm

Re: TG-IV downside?

Well it may be a plan, but it depends on what the Sunfire does with it (I'm not sure). If it "always" assumes that the sub is the same distance away as your mains, it isn't gonna help at all! It will just make your setup confusing. If it assumes that it's always some reasonable distance away, it might work.
It should sound like it isn't there!
There is a difference between hearing and listening...
Making life enjoyable through expensive electronics.
_________________
Carver: C-4000 & C-1 preamps, PSC-60 preamp/tuner, TX-11a tuner, M-400 (2), C-500, M-500, M-500t, M-500t Mk.II, A-500x, AL-III loudspeakers (2 pr.)
Sunfire:Theater Grand III processor, Ultimate Receiver, Cinema Grand Signature 400 ~ seven, True Subwoofer Mk. II, D-10 Subwoofer
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bob p

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Post Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:43 pm

Re: TG-IV downside?

interesting that you chose the M-500t for your home theater. I chose the 1.5 series of amps for mine.
Carver Preamps: C-1, C-2, BillD's JVD-modded C-4000, C-9
Carver Amplifiers: BillD's C-500, M-1.5t (4) PM-1.5 (4) M-500t (2)
Repair/Restoration/Upgrade expert for all of these components.
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RichP714

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Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:12 pm

Post Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:19 am

Re: TG-IV downside?

bob p wrote:interesting that you chose the M-500t for your home theater. I chose the 1.5 series of amps for mine.
For me it was a VERY close choice between either the M-500t or the M-1.0t. In the end I'm actually doing both; saving the M-1.0t for subwoofer duty
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Mr. M-500t

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Post Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:37 am

Re: TG-IV downside?

You have good taste ! *5* \:D/ 8)
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RichP714

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Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:12 pm

Post Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:10 am

Re: TG-IV downside?

Mr. M-500t wrote:You have good taste ! *5* \:D/ 8)
Sonically the M-500t won by a hair.

Electronically the M-1.0 has much cleaner looking clipping.

the M-1.0 rails (3) switch like rungs on a ladder, when the signal reaches the limit of one rung the next higher rung/transistor switches on; with the M-500t rails (2) switch over the heads of the same output transistors, raising the voltage over their heads, so it's one rung that gets wider.

As a conseuqnece of it's switching style, the M-500t at clipping seems to have artifacts from ALL the rails happening (four smeared looking horizontal clipping regions at the top of the waveform, two on the way up and two on the way down) and the M-1.0t clipping looks more like 'regular' clipping.

Given that behavior, from measurements I SHOULD prefer the M-1.0t, but I don't. The ONLY (and possibly far off the mark) reason I can dig up for this is, since the M-1.0t transistors aren't 'on' all the time, like the M-500t's are, that early effect is somehow coming into play.

As far as taste goes, having lost my left cerebellum drastically altered my sense of smell and taste (I know you didn't mean tongue taste, but it's an interesting (to me) fun fact).

Regular food now tastes WAY too sweet, to the extent that dinner rolls (for example) now taste and smell nauseatingly sweet. In the olfactory, my left nostril no longer responds, to ANYTHING; which is a bonus when you're changing your daughter's diaper ;)

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