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HDMI

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BillD

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Post Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:32 am

Re: HDMI

Actually, I overstated something in my last post. You need HDMI if you want to transmit the latest audio formats digitally. You can always decode them and transport them analog. I do this with SACD with an 8 connector shielded snake from my player to my Sunfire's 8-channel input (7.1). My player has all the adjustments for each level and distance (just like setting up the A/V processor).
It should sound like it isn't there!
There is a difference between hearing and listening...
Making life enjoyable through expensive electronics.
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Carver: C-4000 & C-1 preamps, PSC-60 preamp/tuner, TX-11a tuner, M-400 (2), C-500, M-500, M-500t, M-500t Mk.II, A-500x, AL-III loudspeakers (2 pr.)
Sunfire:Theater Grand III processor, Ultimate Receiver, Cinema Grand Signature 400 ~ seven, True Subwoofer Mk. II, D-10 Subwoofer
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weitrhino

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Post Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:32 pm

Re: HDMI

Curious. I was the first to reply to this thread but it doesn't seem to be here.
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BillD

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Post Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:44 pm

Re: HDMI

Maybe you did what I often do. Just hit the back button, not the submit. I don't know how many times I've done that without knowing it, and even more times when I catch myself (and go forward and submit).
It should sound like it isn't there!
There is a difference between hearing and listening...
Making life enjoyable through expensive electronics.
_________________
Carver: C-4000 & C-1 preamps, PSC-60 preamp/tuner, TX-11a tuner, M-400 (2), C-500, M-500, M-500t, M-500t Mk.II, A-500x, AL-III loudspeakers (2 pr.)
Sunfire:Theater Grand III processor, Ultimate Receiver, Cinema Grand Signature 400 ~ seven, True Subwoofer Mk. II, D-10 Subwoofer
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Rainman

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Post Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:37 am

Re: HDMI

I may have missed something here, but the first Sunfire unit that had HDMI switching was the Theater Grand 5. None of the other units before that had HDMI so I unless I missed something I am not sure why my fellow forum members who are using units that are not HDMI capable would advise you to not use the HDMI switching in your unit? There are things that HDMI does that the other types of connections do not as far as superior picture/sound, but I do not know all there is to know on the pros-cons. I would read your owners manual to see what running your HDMI signal through your processor will allow you to do.
A close friend of ours had a TGP 5 and does run his t.v. signal through it for a specific reason so I will inquire with him to find out why......
I posted a link to a review of the TGP IV from avrev.com where they state specifically that they wanted HDMI switching on it, but it was made before it was being used...

Rainman


http://www.avrev.com/home-theater-pream ... sor-3.html
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TNRabbit

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Post Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:36 am

Re: HDMI

Mike, the HDMI on the TG-V is ONLY for switching purposes; it does NOT transfer audio.
TNRabbit
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Dreamer

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Post Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:36 am

Re: HDMI

BillD wrote:Actually, I overstated something in my last post. You need HDMI if you want to transmit the latest audio formats digitally. You can always decode them and transport them analog. I do this with SACD with an 8 connector shielded snake from my player to my Sunfire's 8-channel input (7.1). My player has all the adjustments for each level and distance (just like setting up the A/V processor).


Well, you got it mostly correct, Bill...

Actually, ANY digital interface--HDMI, Toslink, or Coax--will carry ANY digital audio signal (even the "new" formats) from a DVD. It's when you get into the high-resolution audio formats (SACD, new multichannel audio formats on BluRay) that the older digital audio-only interfaces like Toslink and Coax can't handle the bit rate.

So, if you're using a DVD player, and a Sunfire TGP-V (or newer Pre/Pro), here is what I'd suggest you do, for the BEST quality on all fronts. Run an HDMI from your player DIRECTLY to your TV. This will ensure you get the best quality video possible in your system. (Remember, the fewer boxes in the signal path, the better--this INCLUDES video!) Then run a Digial Coax cable from your player to your Sunfire preamp, into one if it's "digital inputs", and let the Sunfire perform the DAC operations (and also, this way, all the digital sound processing for surround sound can remain in the digital domain...).

The one exception that I know of is multichannel SACDs. As far as I know, none of the Oppo players pass SACD via any of their digital outputs--HDMI, Toslink, or Coax. I think this is because of pressure they got from the RIAA, and they disabled this function as a way to cover their own asses against potential digital copy lawsuits from the recording industry. Technically, HDMI is completely capable of passing an SACD digital signal (2-ch or multichannel), but like I said, I don't think any of the Oppo's do it. I can't speak to any other SACD-capable players, but I believe this is pretty much universal. Since nobody is making a standalone DAC that does SACD decoding, and there are VERY few pre/pro's that do it, your only real option is to let your player do the D/A conversion for SACDs, and run analog ICs to your preamp (either 2ch or MC).

At least, that's how I do it... YMMV, of course...

--Richard
.....HT Rig • Sony STR-DG600 Receiver • Carver M-500t • Sony BDP-S1 • Sony DVP-NS3100ES • Apple Airport Express •
..............................• Martin Logan Scenarios, Logos • Realistic Minimus 7's • Velodyne F-1500b •

2 Ch. Rig • Carver C-4000t • Silver 7t's • Krell KAV-300i • Oppo DV-981HD • Benchmark DAC1-USB • MacBook Pro 17", iTunes •
......• Technics SL-1350 turntable with Sumiko headshell, leads, and Bluepoint cartridge • Martin Logan Sequels •

.........................................................-+-Click Here to see my system-+-
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tah800

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Post Thu Mar 05, 2009 4:36 pm

Re: HDMI

O.K. after reading all this old Mr Dumbass here is getting more confused by the minute. So from all of this 1.I should hook my Bluray player directly to the T.V. with an HDMI cable. 2. Should I then hook a piece of digital cable(by the way is digital coax and digital cable the same thing) to my DVD player and then to the TG-5. So I have sound runnning through both cables?????? . Now with my CD player should I run a piece of digital cable from it to the TG-5 or just use a set of high quality RCA's. I have The Rotel RCD1072. Someone told me the Digital Audio Converters on both the CD player and the processor should be of equally high quality. I would have no idea. A lot of peole told me that the processor would just act as a switching station. I don't know what you mean there either. So listen don't dazzle me to death with to much info Let's just stick to the ideas here and remember let's use the old K.I.S.S mentality. Your dealing with a guy whose only had a set of Carvers, a set of Silver T blocks ,an old C1. 2 pairs of RCA cables and a set of speaker cables and I was good to go. SACD's ,Toslink I don't know a thing about them.Art P.S. Yeah yeah I know not the sharpest tool in the shed right???
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BillD

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Post Thu Mar 05, 2009 4:55 pm

Re: HDMI

Does your Blu-Ray player have 8 channel RCA output? If it does, you'll want to connect those to your Sunfire too, to run Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD.
It should sound like it isn't there!
There is a difference between hearing and listening...
Making life enjoyable through expensive electronics.
_________________
Carver: C-4000 & C-1 preamps, PSC-60 preamp/tuner, TX-11a tuner, M-400 (2), C-500, M-500, M-500t, M-500t Mk.II, A-500x, AL-III loudspeakers (2 pr.)
Sunfire:Theater Grand III processor, Ultimate Receiver, Cinema Grand Signature 400 ~ seven, True Subwoofer Mk. II, D-10 Subwoofer
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tah800

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Post Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:15 pm

Re: HDMI

Bill it has analogue left and right,a digital out, an rem in and a 12v triigger in(whatever the hell the last 2 are????). Can we deal with the things in the last post. You're killing me here.I mean that in a nice way. Art #-o
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tah800

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Post Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:19 pm

Re: HDMI

Sorry Bill that was my CD player. See how confused I am. However maybe we could deal with just the things in my post Art
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BillD

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Post Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:57 pm

Re: HDMI

tah800 wrote:O.K. after reading all this old Mr Dumbass here is getting more confused by the minute. So from all of this 1.I should hook my Bluray player directly to the T.V. with an HDMI cable. 2. Should I then hook a piece of digital cable(by the way is digital coax and digital cable the same thing) to my DVD player and then to the TG-5. So I have sound runnning through both cables?????? . Now with my CD player should I run a piece of digital cable from it to the TG-5 or just use a set of high quality RCA's. I have The Rotel RCD1072. Someone told me the Digital Audio Converters on both the CD player and the processor should be of equally high quality. I would have no idea. A lot of peole told me that the processor would just act as a switching station. I don't know what you mean there either. So listen don't dazzle me to death with to much info Let's just stick to the ideas here and remember let's use the old K.I.S.S mentality. Your dealing with a guy whose only had a set of Carvers, a set of Silver T blocks ,an old C1. 2 pairs of RCA cables and a set of speaker cables and I was good to go. SACD's ,Toslink I don't know a thing about them.Art P.S. Yeah yeah I know not the sharpest tool in the shed right???


OK. 1. yes. 2. yes and yes. Turn off the sound on the TV when using your TG-5 (also see my other post about additional connections). For your CD player, I'd run digital to the TG-5. You could also run RCA and compare (that's what I would do). See which sounds best. It can't hurt. You can leave them both connected if you want.

I would imagine what people are telling you about switching is that you can designate what audio input on your TG-5 becomes active when it receives and HDMI signal. I don't believe that's enough reason to run your DVD or cable box through another piece of equipment (and an extra length of HDMI cable).

Still need info on what outputs your Blu-Ray player has.
It should sound like it isn't there!
There is a difference between hearing and listening...
Making life enjoyable through expensive electronics.
_________________
Carver: C-4000 & C-1 preamps, PSC-60 preamp/tuner, TX-11a tuner, M-400 (2), C-500, M-500, M-500t, M-500t Mk.II, A-500x, AL-III loudspeakers (2 pr.)
Sunfire:Theater Grand III processor, Ultimate Receiver, Cinema Grand Signature 400 ~ seven, True Subwoofer Mk. II, D-10 Subwoofer
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Dreamer

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Post Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:16 pm

Re: HDMI

tah800 wrote:O.K. after reading all this old Mr Dumbass here is getting more confused by the minute. So from all of this 1.I should hook my Bluray player directly to the T.V. with an HDMI cable. 2. Should I then hook a piece of digital cable(by the way is digital coax and digital cable the same thing) to my DVD player and then to the TG-5. So I have sound runnning through both cables?????? .


Bingo.

The ONLY advantage to running your HDMI through a pre/pro or receiver THEN a single cable to the TV is that it makes switching sources a little simpler. If SAF (spouse approval Factor) is your top priority, this is the way to go. Bu tif you're striving for teh best performance from you rrig in both audio and video, you need to keep the signal chains as short as possible. Run video from sources DIRECTLY to the TV, via HDMI. Run digital audio from sources to the preamp via digial links.

Although it makes switching sources a little more involved, here is the one BIG advantage to doing it this way" you don't HAVE to listen to sound through the stereo all the time. If you want to just watch CNN, or an excercise DVD or somethign where sound isn't all that critical, by running your sources directly to the TV AND to the preamp, you have the option to JUSt use the built-in TV speakers. Whe you DO want the whole "home theater" experience, put your TV on "mute", and crank up the preamp...


tah800 wrote:Now with my CD player should I run a piece of digital cable from it to the TG-5 or just use a set of high quality RCA's. I have The Rotel RCD1072. Someone told me the Digital Audio Converters on both the CD player and the processor should be of equally high quality. I would have no idea. A lot of peole told me that the processor would just act as a switching station. I don't know what you mean there either.


By "switching station", we mean that if you have multiple video sources (for instance, a VCR, DVD player, and cable box), you COULD run them ALL into the preamp, then just run a single HDMI to the TV. Then, when you want to change sources, you just chose the correct input on the preamp, and the correct sound comes out of the speakers, and the corresponding video gets sent to the TV. This kind of setup will make your family much happier, because it's dead simple. However, you do get some compromise in video quality...

OR you do it like I said, running HDMIs from sources to the TV, and then passing the digial audio to the preamp from sources via some sort of digital cable. This makes changing sources a little more complicated--you have to choose the "input" on your TV's menu, AND choose the correct source on the preamp to get the sound to come out of your surround sound system. Bu toveral performance will be better, because you've removed a VERY complicated, processing-heavy bit of gear out of the video signal chain.

See what I mean now?

Home Theater systems are a WHOLE different ball of wax than a 2-channel stereo. It's not just "the next step" in a home system--the level of technological escalation and complication is like the difference between a 1969 VW Beetle and a Koenigseg. The audio/video business really makes it sound overly simple, and the fact is that if you're used to setting up an "old school" 2-channel rig, a 5.1 home theater system is a MASSIVE leap in terms of complexity. Not only are you adding a whole extra layer of signals--video--but you;ve also got a subwoofer, a center speaker and 2 rears that you need to get all dialed in and properly calibrated for it to sound worth a damn. Luckily, most good HT preamps and receivers have "auto-calibration" features and come with a calibration mic. In MOST systems, for the average user, this is good enough, but most of us tweekers and geeks just use this setting as a "starting point". I NEVER settle for the audo-cal settings on my HT system. I always adjust the sub (usually dial it WAY down from the auto setting), the center (usually turn it up a tiny bit) and the rears (usually turn them up several notches). But then again, I'm a geek and a tweeker--I have an SPL meter and I'm not afraid to use it... ;)


As for your CD player, I'd say try both the analog outputs and the digital. If you like the DACs in your Rotel player better, stock with them. You may find that the Sunfire has slightly more "detailed" sound though--it does have VERY good onboard DACs, and can outperform most non-audiophile-level CD players. However, some folks find the Sunfire DAC to be a little on the "edgy" side, especially if you are used to a really "laid back" sound like from some of the "British" gear like Meridian, Cambridge, or Rega. The Rotel CD players have always sounded very "clean" to me--a little more forward tha "Brit gear" but not quite as "agressive" or "clinical" as some of the Japanese or American "high-end" stuff like Krell, Esoteric, Marantz, or Sony ES...

I'd say try both--let your ears decide which way sounds better in your rig...


tah800 wrote:So listen don't dazzle me to death with to much info Let's just stick to the ideas here and remember let's use the old K.I.S.S mentality. Your dealing with a guy whose only had a set of Carvers, a set of Silver T blocks ,an old C1. 2 pairs of RCA cables and a set of speaker cables and I was good to go. SACD's ,Toslink I don't know a thing about them.Art P.S. Yeah yeah I know not the sharpest tool in the shed right???


SACD is a higher-resolution format for audio CDs. Some SACDs are just 2-channel (but they sound WAY better than regular CDs) and some have 5.1 surround information. The difference between SACD and regular CDs in terms of clarity, detail and "realness" is akin to the difference between regular DVDs and BluRay discs...

TOSLINK is a digital interface developed by Toshiba with the original purpose of passing "control" signals between components, like "synch" signals for dubbing from CD to cassette, or "triggers" for turning a stack of gear on and off, or for controlling a stack of gear through a receiver using just one remote. They decided sometime in the early 1990s that they could pass a digital audio signal over TOSLINK, and started pushing it as a marketing ploy. The fact is, if you have another option for passing a digital signal (like coax or HDMI), you should use it--TOSLINK is generally considered a digital cable of last resort in the "audiophile" world. TOSLINK is also know as "Optical" or "Fiber Optic", and used plastic fiber optic cable to pass a pulsed light signal (in most cases, it's a red laser).

When I say "Digital Coax" I'm talking about the single RCA jacks on the back of your components (usually they have an orange color coded insulator) that are usually marked just "Digital". This uses a cable that looks pretty much exactly like the cables you're used to working with--they have an RCA plug on each end, and use standard wire as the conductor. No fancy-schmancy lasers or fiber optic cable or other 21st century techno-magic here--just good old fashioned electrical signals passing through a wire. Many folks think that if you're going to pass a digital signal from a component to an outboard DAC or to a preamp/receiver, this is the way to go. I tend to agree. I have always found (in my rig) that digital coax just sounds more detailed and "natural" than TOSLINK. To me, TOSLINK connections sound grainy, veiled, and a little muffled.

The only time I use TOSLINK is when I don't have any other choice. I use it to connect my Airport Express to the receiver (for wirelessly streaming music from my laptop from iTunes into the stereo), and for connecting my Cable box to the system (because if I use a "wire" connector for the audio from my cable box, I get TERRIBLE ground loop hum. The one and ONLY advantage to TOSLINK is that it does isolate the connected components electrically, so it can help fix ground-loop hum issues that are caused by the bizarre grounding schemes used by many cable systems.)

I know this is a LOT of information. But you gotta understand--a HT (home theater) system is a TREMENDOUS leap up in terms of technology, compared to a 2-channel, music-only rig. You're adding video, multi-channel audio, surround processing, all sorts of technological mojo. It's not just a few steps up, its like the express elevator to the penthouse... ;)

Keep asking questions. We'll keep trying to answer them. We're geeky that way... :D

--Richard
.....HT Rig • Sony STR-DG600 Receiver • Carver M-500t • Sony BDP-S1 • Sony DVP-NS3100ES • Apple Airport Express •
..............................• Martin Logan Scenarios, Logos • Realistic Minimus 7's • Velodyne F-1500b •

2 Ch. Rig • Carver C-4000t • Silver 7t's • Krell KAV-300i • Oppo DV-981HD • Benchmark DAC1-USB • MacBook Pro 17", iTunes •
......• Technics SL-1350 turntable with Sumiko headshell, leads, and Bluepoint cartridge • Martin Logan Sequels •

.........................................................-+-Click Here to see my system-+-
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Jag_97470

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Location: Oregon

Post Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:37 pm

Re: HDMI

As always Dreamer, very well said!! You do have a way to explain something in simple terms. You should be a school teacher (Really).
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tah800

TFM-25

Posts: 395

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2004 9:26 pm

Location: Sussex,New Brunswick, Canada

Post Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:58 pm

Re: HDMI

Thxs guys. I'm just about ready to put this rig together. I wish we were all closer. I'd have some of you over to go over all this stuff with me. Lots of beer provided of course. Really hard to get the new cables in my neck of the woods. Went looking for some XLR balanced cable the other day. Most guys in the stores didn't know what I was talking about. Monster is the only real high end cable in these parts and I don't think that company even makes it. I mentioned my Martin Logan surround stuff and they hadn't even heard of it. Most people in this area think Bose is great stuff so you know there's not a great deal of interest here.I'm pretty well forced to order all my stuff over the net. Most of the time it's just a quessing game. An expensive one I might add. No real chance of trying things out. Anyway thanks again I may just pay a guy with a little expertise to come in and get me started. Once I see how something goes I usually can continue on my own. Art
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Dreamer

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Location: Washington, NC

Post Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:36 am

Re: HDMI

Jag_97470 wrote:As always Dreamer, very well said!! You do have a way to explain something in simple terms. You should be a school teacher (Really).


Thanks. Actually, aside from being REALLY into this hobby for about 20 years, I also sold "consumer electronics" for about a year and a half for Sears, and had to learn how to explain this stuff to "Joe Sixpack" who generally didn't know anything at all about audio and video. You wouldn't believe some of the stuff people would come in and ask about. One of the first questions you hear in that business is "Yeah, but does it sound as good as Bose?". I don't know how many times I told people that Bose's reputation (and price!) was 50% marketing, 40% SAF and 10% technology, and that if they REALLY wanted to spend Bose money, they'd be better off buying a Denon Receiver and some Boston speakers. I sold a LOT of "seperate" systems for Sears (most of the other guys sold more HTIB systems, which didn't sound NEARLY as good, and had a much lower commission...) In a year and a half, I never had one return due to dissatisfaction. In fact, by the end, I had people coming in and asking for me specifically...

As for the school teacher thing, well, I'm working on that. I'm applying to grad school to start in the Spring 2010 semester to get my MFA, so I can teach Graphic Design and Printmaking...

I actually enjoy teaching and explaining things (like it doesn't show...). Talking with people on my same level or more knowledgeable is fun, and enlightening (that's why I like forums such as this) but I get a special thrill when I explain something REALLY technical to someone who is totally NOT technical, and I see the little light go on in their eyes... \:D/

On this forum, it's reward enough to know that I'm helping someone get more out of their system...

--Richard
.....HT Rig • Sony STR-DG600 Receiver • Carver M-500t • Sony BDP-S1 • Sony DVP-NS3100ES • Apple Airport Express •
..............................• Martin Logan Scenarios, Logos • Realistic Minimus 7's • Velodyne F-1500b •

2 Ch. Rig • Carver C-4000t • Silver 7t's • Krell KAV-300i • Oppo DV-981HD • Benchmark DAC1-USB • MacBook Pro 17", iTunes •
......• Technics SL-1350 turntable with Sumiko headshell, leads, and Bluepoint cartridge • Martin Logan Sequels •

.........................................................-+-Click Here to see my system-+-
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