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Lets talk about power....A/C power

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helicopterpilotdoug

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Post Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:41 am

Lets talk about power....A/C power

Did not know where to post this, so picked this forum.

OK, as a lot of you know I'm putting together a 7.1 system that will consist of Pre/pro along with 3 amps. When researching the power requirements of these, I'm looking at a lot of wattage. These are maximum figures, which I'd more than likely never draw.
TG IV 40W
TFM-45 1700W
A-500X 880W
A-753 1320 (Guestimate since I have no manual yet)
Sub Woffer 756W
Sony 46" TV 240W
Other components (Sat. Blu-ray, DVDR/RW, CD, Cassette, VCR, Turntable) Approx. 250W.
This makes a total of 5186 watts, or 43 amps. I'd never have everything on at the same time, but the high power items would be on most of the time.

Now, how would you power this setup? Please give me your suggestions.
Thanks,

edit: Forgot the subwoofer!
Doug
Sunfire: Theater Grand IV, Cinema Grand Signature.
Carver: TFM-45, PST-24 Cassette, Extra Carver Gear: CT-6, C-11 (S/N 00001).
Polk Audio: Mains SRS 2.1TL, Center CSiA6, Surrounds FXiA6 and FXiA4, Sub DSW MicroPro 1000, Extra Speakers SDA 2A, SDA 2Btl, Monitor 10A.
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treitz3

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Post Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:04 am

Re: Lets talk about power....A/C power

Hello Doug. 2 dedicated 30 amp circuits.
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to a good analogue reproduction.

Robert R. - "Did you see my North Korea analogy? I should have named it Carversite.kim"
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TNRabbit

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Post Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:13 am

Re: Lets talk about power....A/C power

treitz3 wrote:Hello Doug. 2 dedicated 30 amp circuits.


x2

8)
TNRabbit
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From FrankieD's lips to your ears: Sunfire - a quiet box of endless power.

Sunfire TG-IV/400~7 Amp
Carver SD/A-360 CDP
Benchmark DAC-1
Sony SACD/DVD-A
Active bi-amp: Ashly XR-1001 & 2 Rane PEQ-15s
Main: HotRodded AL-IIIs
Sub: Klipsch RT-12d
Center: Sunfire CRS-3c
Surround: Sunfire CRS-3 (x 2)

OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

RIP WIlliam B. Dibble, 1948-2012. I'll miss you my friend.
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stevewithrow

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Post Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:56 am

Re: Lets talk about power....A/C power

TNRabbit wrote:
treitz3 wrote:Hello Doug. 2 dedicated 30 amp circuits.


x2

8)

And make sure you use # 10 wire.. 8)
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Dr. W

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Post Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:09 am

Re: Lets talk about power....A/C power

Of course UL only requires 10 awg, but if you put in 8 awg, there will be an improvement.

Maker sure you or the electrician use the same leg of your power panel for those 30 amp circuits. If the breakers are right next to each other, one will be on one one leg 110 legs of your 220 supply and the other will be on the other leg. [-X

Great potential for interaction that "could" cause audible ground loop problems, and even with no hum will definitely decrease the resolving power and beauty of texture available from you equipment.

My 3 cents (inflation). :)

Bruce
Bruce A Weiland, my system here -->> http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vevol&1317958032&openmine&zzBruce_weiland&4&5#Bruce_weiland
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stevewithrow

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Post Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:25 am

Re: Lets talk about power....A/C power

Dr. W wrote:Of course UL only requires 10 awg, but if you put in 8 awg, there will be an improvement.

Maker sure you or the electrician use the same leg of your power panel for those 30 amp circuits. If the breakers are right next to each other, one will be on one one leg 110 legs of your 220 supply and the other will be on the other leg. [-X

Great potential for interaction that "could" cause audible ground loop problems, and even with no hum will definitely decrease the resolving power and beauty of texture available from you equipment.

My 3 cents (inflation). :)

Bruce

You have a NEC code book..?...If not I would suggest getting one before quoting #,s like that..Common gauge wire in a residential house IS # 12...The on your dryers and ovens you will see # 10 to a 2 pull 30 amp breakers...# 8 in a house for branch circuits ...?...I dont think so .You would NEVER use # 8 wire to feed rececpts , unless maybe you have a sub panel out in you garage and you have a compressor or welder ( thats another whole story ) .As far as you feeds coming in . 2 120 feeders ( not 110 , put an amp probe on them , if your getting 110 , you are in trouble )...they would be on phases ( a-b )

Not my 2 cents , I have only been doing this for 17 years...When it comes to people telling others how to wire there house with NO experience ( or licensee ) bugs the fuck out of me.. :x
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elgrau

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Post Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:53 am

Re: Lets talk about power....A/C power

1. run EVERYTHING (temporarily; just for this measurement!) thru one power strip.
2. monitor/graph (using, e.g., RatShack graphing digital meter hooked up to computer and using supplied Meterview software) this total amperage useage (at the power strip input) over several days of useage of your system (wherein you "push it" to the max volumn levels you ever expect to see. Or not; the longer this "measurement period" the less of this artificial "useage levels" you need to do...just do your thing and see what comes out!). I built myself a little amp measurement box (just an outlet box with a few resistors) that steps the measured amps of anything plugged into it down to milliamps (one milliamp = one amp). This way you can run thin gage wire from this measurement box to your digital meter which is located at your computer and hooked up to it and not be concerned about exceeding the max amp level of your digital meter. I used this process to monitor the power useage of my old dishwasher to show that it was "defective" in that it was "sticking" on the part of the cycle that was supposed to super heat the water....
3. Take the peak of this graphed useage over several days/weeks and multiply it by some "safety factor" (perhaps 1.5) and this number is your max expected amperage draw for "normal" useage of your system.
4. Divide this max amperage up (if needed) into as many circuts at whatever amperage level exists for them (or will exist if you will be running new lines), and plug everything into these outlet(s).
Ed
Family room: 400 disk changer with PS Audio Digital Link III DAC; Technics SL-1100A TT. QED Quenx1 IC's from DAC & TT to Adcom GTP-602 preamp/Tuner. AudioQuest King Cobra IC's from preamp to M1.0t mk-II opt2. QED Silver Spirals 4M wires to EPI 1000’s.
Living room: AudioQuest Black Mamba 8M IC's from family room preamp to Barcus-Berry 2002R Sonic Maximizer to GlowPower Zyxt IC's to Sunfire 300x2 to Nordost 6M bi-source wires to AOS 28" MDF spherical speakers using six 8" woofers and eight 1" dome tweeters symm. arranged around the surface.
SS system: CX-995V DVD to AV-705x 5 channel amp (center/rears) & M1.0t mk-II opt2(fronts).
Garage: TLM-3600 CDP to MXR150 Receiver (pre) to TFM-42 to EPI 400 speakers.
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stevewithrow

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Post Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:04 pm

Re: Lets talk about power....A/C power

1 milli ampere is 0.001 amperes...1000 miili amps = 1 amp...WTF , you on crack..?
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Dr. W

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Post Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: Lets talk about power....A/C power

You have a NEC code book..?...If not I would suggest getting one before quoting #,s like that..Common gauge wire in a residential house IS # 12...The on your dryers and ovens you will see # 10 to a 2 pull 30 amp breakers...# 8 in a house for branch circuits ...?...I dont think so .You would NEVER use # 8 wire to feed rececpts , unless maybe you have a sub panel out in you garage and you have a compressor or welder ( thats another whole story ) .As far as you feeds coming in . 2 120 feeders ( not 110 , put an amp probe on them , if your getting 110 , you are in trouble )...they would be on phases ( a-b )

Not my 2 cents , I have only been doing this for 17 years...When it comes to people telling others how to wire there house with NO experience ( or licensee ) bugs the fuck out of me.. :x


Steve,

I defer your expertise, training and experience.

My purpose was NOT to bug the fuck out of you, or anyone else. Just to assist in getting the best sonic result.

Listing 110v is certainly an error based on my total non-qualifications. As I understand it in most US locations the line is at 117 volts, on average.

I did not recommend he put in larger breakers. IF he has the where with all to run 8 awg from the panel to his power outlet, what is the harm in using a larger gauge.

I certainly understand the problems associated with under sizing the wire, fire potential, etc.

But what harm is over sizing, other than additional $$$ and more difficult to run because of stiffness and size at the connections????

Bruce
Bruce A Weiland, my system here -->> http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vevol&1317958032&openmine&zzBruce_weiland&4&5#Bruce_weiland
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stevewithrow

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Post Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:20 pm

Re: Lets talk about power....A/C power

Dr. W wrote:
You have a NEC code book..?...If not I would suggest getting one before quoting #,s like that..Common gauge wire in a residential house IS # 12...The on your dryers and ovens you will see # 10 to a 2 pull 30 amp breakers...# 8 in a house for branch circuits ...?...I dont think so .You would NEVER use # 8 wire to feed rececpts , unless maybe you have a sub panel out in you garage and you have a compressor or welder ( thats another whole story ) .As far as you feeds coming in . 2 120 feeders ( not 110 , put an amp probe on them , if your getting 110 , you are in trouble )...they would be on phases ( a-b )

Not my 2 cents , I have only been doing this for 17 years...When it comes to people telling others how to wire there house with NO experience ( or licensee ) bugs the fuck out of me.. :x


Steve,

I defer your expertise, training and experience.

My purpose was NOT to bug the fuck out of you, or anyone else. Just to assist in getting the best sonic result.

Listing 110v is certainly an error based on my total non-qualifications. As I understand it in most US locations the line is at 117 volts, on average.

I did not recommend he put in larger breakers. IF he has the where with all to run 8 awg from the panel to his power outlet, what is the harm in using a larger gauge.

I certainly understand the problems associated with under sizing the wire, fire potential, etc.

But what harm is over sizing, other than additional $$$ and more difficult to run because of stiffness and size at the connections????

Bruce

What harm...??...well lets see..um ..you could burn your house down and kill every one in it..( if that breaker DOES NOT trip ) ..for starters...Plus , its a code violation...Look on the back of the plug , it says what size wire is max....And for what he is doing , and what your suggesting WILL not work..You would have to cut the strands to make it fit , and when the you go to sell your house , and the house inspector opens your panel and see,s that # 8 , he will ask where is that going to....Oh , its going there ?..Hire a licensed electrician and pull it out and put # 10 in.( if on 30 amp breaker ).This will cost you alot more money then you thought , because you THOUGHT you knew what you where doing .Sorry if I seem like an ass , I am not...Just got to be careful when suggesting stuff , cuz people will do it..Then get in trouble...
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Dr. W

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Post Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:52 pm

Re: Lets talk about power....A/C power

Steve,

Thanks for the explanation.

By the way, my recommendation was NOT for multi-stranded, but single strand solid wire.

Back to your explanation. Again thanks.

I certainly did not know that one could not over size the wire, by code.

My thinking was that large wire would actually lower the resistance in the wire and potential for fire from a "hot" wire, since the breaker is limited to 30 amps the large wire size would not tend to get hot at all.

I am further mislead by the fact that we just installed a 150kv/630ma high frequency x-ray generator (hospital grade) in my office. We had previously installed a 125kv/300ma (not high frequency - very old unit) which required a 220v, 100 amp service.

In preparation for the coming unit I had the electrician install 00 wire instead of the required 0 size for 220v (actually 208v because it was two legs of our three phase plus neutral feed) because I knew my new unit required three phase plus neutral 208v 150 amp service to function at its potential.

The electrician didn't even blink at my request, nor did the city inspector have a problem with my up-sized wire with the original install.

Now admittedly, just because someone is a licensed electrician for many years, or a long time experienced inspector, it does not mean they can't be incompetent. But, I think you can see why I did not realize there was any harm in recommending a larger awg wire with no circuit breaker capacity increase.

I apologize for any confusion I may have caused those reading here, or misinformation, in relationship to safety, I may have disseminated. [-o<

Bruce
Bruce A Weiland, my system here -->> http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vevol&1317958032&openmine&zzBruce_weiland&4&5#Bruce_weiland
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elgrau

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Post Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:05 pm

Re: Lets talk about power....A/C power

" milli ampere is 0.001 amperes...1000 miili amps = 1 amp...WTF , you on crack..?"

No dumbass....you just adjust the scale when plotting (so, e.g., 30 milliamps plots as 30 AMPS). The "measurement box" just has a "tap" that steps down the ACTUAL current (amps) to what is MONITORED (milliamps). When you record this monitored current, you just adjust the scale of the plot so that one milliamp measured = one ACTUAL amp in the real circut. Did not think I needed to "dumb it down" that much here.....but :rolleyes: come on...pretty common method....in fact meters do this all the time!
Family room: 400 disk changer with PS Audio Digital Link III DAC; Technics SL-1100A TT. QED Quenx1 IC's from DAC & TT to Adcom GTP-602 preamp/Tuner. AudioQuest King Cobra IC's from preamp to M1.0t mk-II opt2. QED Silver Spirals 4M wires to EPI 1000’s.
Living room: AudioQuest Black Mamba 8M IC's from family room preamp to Barcus-Berry 2002R Sonic Maximizer to GlowPower Zyxt IC's to Sunfire 300x2 to Nordost 6M bi-source wires to AOS 28" MDF spherical speakers using six 8" woofers and eight 1" dome tweeters symm. arranged around the surface.
SS system: CX-995V DVD to AV-705x 5 channel amp (center/rears) & M1.0t mk-II opt2(fronts).
Garage: TLM-3600 CDP to MXR150 Receiver (pre) to TFM-42 to EPI 400 speakers.
<<

stevewithrow

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Location: Great NorthWest.....Carver Country..

Post Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:08 pm

Re: Lets talk about power....A/C power

Dr. W wrote:Steve,

Thanks for the explanation.

By the way, my recommendation was NOT for multi-stranded, but single strand solid wire.

Back to your explanation. Again thanks.

I certainly did not know that one could not over size the wire, by code.

My thinking was that large wire would actually lower the resistance in the wire and potential for fire from a "hot" wire, since the breaker is limited to 30 amps the large wire size would not tend to get hot at all.

I am further mislead by the fact that we just installed a 150kv/630ma high frequency x-ray generator (hospital grade) in my office. We had previously installed a 125kv/300ma (not high frequency - very old unit) which required a 220v, 100 amp service.

In preparation for the coming unit I had the electrician install 00 wire instead of the required 0 size for 220v (actually 208v because it was two legs of our three phase plus neutral feed) because I knew my new unit required three phase plus neutral 208v 150 amp service to function at its potential.

The electrician didn't even blink at my request, nor did the city inspector have a problem with my up-sized wire with the original install.

Now admittedly, just because someone is a licensed electrician for many years, or a long time experienced inspector, it does not mean they can't be incompetent. But, I think you can see why I did not realize there was any harm in recommending a larger awg wire with no circuit breaker capacity increase.

I apologize for any confusion I may have caused those reading here, or misinformation, in relationship to safety, I may have disseminated. [-o<

Bruce

Bruce forgive me if I came off wrong..My bad.. #-o ,,Commercial installation is a whole different monster..I do find it interesting you ( they ) allowed you to up-size the wire , but then again , I would have to be THERE to see why they allowed that. Some times on BIG 3 pole breakers you cab adjust them ( frequency )..All I am saying , in residential , you up size , or down size , use ..Be safe , use the RIGHT breaker for the job....We ALL want clean , big power for our systems.. Lets be smart and safe when doing so...Hire a licensed electrician ...
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stevewithrow

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Post Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:10 pm

Re: Lets talk about power....A/C power

elgrau wrote:" milli ampere is 0.001 amperes...1000 miili amps = 1 amp...WTF , you on crack..?"

No dumbass....you just adjust the scale when plotting (so, e.g., 30 milliamps plots as 30 AMPS). The "measurement box" just has a "tap" that steps down the ACTUAL current (amps) to what is MONITORED (milliamps). When you record this monitored current, you just adjust the scale of the plot so that one milliamp measured = one ACTUAL amp in the real circut. Did not think I needed to "dumb it down" that much here.....but :rolleyes: come on...pretty common method....in fact meters do this all the time!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :rolleyes:
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TNRabbit

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Post Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:22 pm

Re: Lets talk about power....A/C power

Appropriate avatar, Steve~ :lol: :lol: :lol:

Image
TNRabbit
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From FrankieD's lips to your ears: Sunfire - a quiet box of endless power.

Sunfire TG-IV/400~7 Amp
Carver SD/A-360 CDP
Benchmark DAC-1
Sony SACD/DVD-A
Active bi-amp: Ashly XR-1001 & 2 Rane PEQ-15s
Main: HotRodded AL-IIIs
Sub: Klipsch RT-12d
Center: Sunfire CRS-3c
Surround: Sunfire CRS-3 (x 2)

OconeeOrange wrote:"Gary likes to play it 'loud' as do I. His system begs you turn it up until you die"

RIP WIlliam B. Dibble, 1948-2012. I'll miss you my friend.
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