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Speaker Placement (Amazing Orginals)

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elgrau

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Post Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:28 pm

Re: Speaker Placement (Amazing Orginals)

Just curious, Beachbum, why do you capitalize the 1st letter of every word in your posts?? Or is it a new font style? :lol:
Family room: 400 disk changer with PS Audio Digital Link III DAC; Technics SL-1100A TT. QED Quenx1 IC's from DAC & TT to Adcom GTP-602 preamp/Tuner. AudioQuest King Cobra IC's from preamp to M1.0t mk-II opt2. QED Silver Spirals 4M wires to EPI 1000’s.
Living room: AudioQuest Black Mamba 8M IC's from family room preamp to Barcus-Berry 2002R Sonic Maximizer to GlowPower Zyxt IC's to Sunfire 300x2 to Nordost 6M bi-source wires to AOS 28" MDF spherical speakers using six 8" woofers and eight 1" dome tweeters symm. arranged around the surface.
SS system: CX-995V DVD to AV-705x 5 channel amp (center/rears) & M1.0t mk-II opt2(fronts).
Garage: TLM-3600 CDP to MXR150 Receiver (pre) to TFM-42 to EPI 400 speakers.
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mbskeam

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Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:32 am

Location: Woodinville Wa

Post Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:37 pm

Re: Speaker Placement (Amazing Orginals)

I use a lazer to get them set up.
aim at the spot you sit, in my case my chair back is higher than my head, so I put a piece of tape where my head is, go to the speaker, place the lazer at the 1/2 way piont up and down, and on the center of the ribbon, then aim away....
it works for me.....
I use tape on the floor to mark the spot.....
Mbskeam


#1 BLACK BEAUTY's made by the man, the myth, the legend Bob Carver
CARVER: TFM-75, TFM-45(3), SD/A-490T
SUNFIRE: Tube pre
2 sets of ALS'3, set of SILVERS, set of PLATS
AUDIOCONTROL: phase coupled activator
KENWOOD: BASIC M2a (2)

“Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but stupid lasts forever.”
― Aristophanes

The only thing I'll feel......will be the RECOIL
Necronomicon Ex-Mortis....... Klaatu Barada Nikkto
"We should seek the greatest value of our action"
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Toy Maker

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Post Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:50 pm

Re: Speaker Placement (Amazing Orginals)

Yup, we got tape on the floor too... WAY easier when you move or bump the speakers a little....


Hey Beachbum....
Your signature is all FLAC'd out... Have you played around with EAC yet ??? Do you hear a difference between the 2 ??
What are you playing back through ??
Whatever you do in life will be insignificant, but it's very important that you do it... because nobody else will.

‎~You think Einstein walked around thinkin' everyone was a bunch of dumb shits?~

SHUT UP AND ENJOY THE MUSIC!
╭∩╮(︶︿︶)╭∩╮

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PDR

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Location: Linbrook, Alberta Canada

Post Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:57 pm

Re: Speaker Placement (Amazing Orginals)

With dipoles wall to wall carpet isnt always an asset.
Some have used click together flooring behind the speakers on top of the carpet to get the reflection back.
With my dipoles( my Originals and open baffles) in my new room (wall to wall) I have lost some of the openess that I had in my old room with just a large throw rug on top of the hard wood.
But..I have not put any treatments up yet....I will not measure till theyre up cause it would be kinda pointless in my opinion.

The funny thing is that my arrays have never sound better in this untreated carpeted room.....didnt think they would.
When I do treatments gong to use bass traps in the 4 corners, absorbers on the walls and diffusors between on the front
and back walls......will it stay that way??.......prob not as this is my first attempt at treatments.....and I think there will be a lot
tweaking....
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OconeeOrange

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Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:24 pm

Post Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:57 pm

Re: Speaker Placement (Amazing Orginals)

elgrau wrote:Just curious, Beachbum, why do you capitalize the 1st letter of every word in your posts?? Or is it a new font style? :lol:


Yea, you are the one who should ask about a guy's writing style - :lol:
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OconeeOrange

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Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:24 pm

Post Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:01 pm

Re: Speaker Placement (Amazing Orginals)

Toy Maker wrote:

Hey Beachbum....
Your signature is all FLAC'd out... Have you played around with EAC yet ??? Do you hear a difference between the 2 ?



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: ](*,)
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Toy Maker

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Post Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:55 pm

Re: Speaker Placement (Amazing Orginals)

OconeeOrange wrote::lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: ](*,)


We'll see smartass Image
Whatever you do in life will be insignificant, but it's very important that you do it... because nobody else will.

‎~You think Einstein walked around thinkin' everyone was a bunch of dumb shits?~

SHUT UP AND ENJOY THE MUSIC!
╭∩╮(︶︿︶)╭∩╮

Image
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Beachbum

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Post Thu Apr 21, 2011 5:06 pm

Re: Speaker Placement (Amazing Orginals)

elgrau wrote:Just curious, Beachbum, why do you capitalize the 1st letter of every word in your posts?? Or is it a new font style? :lol:

Been Typing Like This For Years Sometimes All Caps I Never Understood That Shouting Thing About Caps, My Intention When I Use All Caps Is To Try To Make The Reader Focus On That Main Word Otherwise They End Up Answering The Question Improperly
PS I Hope It Don't Offend You
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ONCE YOU HEAR


F L A C

YOU WILL NEVER GO BACK (to mp3)
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treitz3

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"Julian"

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Location: The tube lair in Charlotte, NC

Post Thu Apr 21, 2011 5:10 pm

Re: Paint question.

There is no acoustical paint. Only treatments. On another note, if you do prefer a 3 degree tilt -vs- the 5 or 6 degree tilt, you can always set something heavy on the back leg of the speaker to keep it from being knocked over. Just make sure that it can't vibrate right off the leg.

You konw, I culod awalys tpye lkie tihs and it culod siltl be rdabelbe. How aubot taht for a fnot? You wree sitll albe to raed it fsat, rgiht? 8-[


:D
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to a good analogue reproduction.

Robert R. - "Did you see my North Korea analogy? I should have named it Carversite.kim"
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Beachbum

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Post Thu Apr 21, 2011 5:23 pm

Re: Speaker Placement (Amazing Orginals)

OconeeOrange wrote:
elgrau wrote:Just curious, Beachbum, why do you capitalize the 1st letter of every word in your posts?? Or is it a new font style? :lol:


Yea, you are the one who should ask about a guy's writing style - :lol:


I Think OconeeOrange Is Defending Me From The Little I Know Of Him I Feel Honored
Image

ONCE YOU HEAR


F L A C

YOU WILL NEVER GO BACK (to mp3)
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OconeeOrange

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Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:24 pm

Post Thu Apr 21, 2011 5:40 pm

Re: Speaker Placement (Amazing Orginals)

Beachbum wrote:.
I Think OconeeOrange Is Defending Me From The Little I Know Of Him I Feel Honored


No, I suspect you can take care of yourself, besides, you were not attacked.
Ed just asked a question.

Words have meanings. Good grammar, spelling and punctuation help convey that. There are not many scholars here, but we do the best we can.

Grammar is important...Capitalization is very important..here is an example...
1)Helping Uncle Jack off the horse
2)Helping Uncle jack off the horse
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mbskeam

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Location: Woodinville Wa

Post Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:48 pm

Re: Speaker Placement (Amazing Orginals)

you must have visted our horse farm in enumclaw WA.... :-" :-" :-" :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Mbskeam


#1 BLACK BEAUTY's made by the man, the myth, the legend Bob Carver
CARVER: TFM-75, TFM-45(3), SD/A-490T
SUNFIRE: Tube pre
2 sets of ALS'3, set of SILVERS, set of PLATS
AUDIOCONTROL: phase coupled activator
KENWOOD: BASIC M2a (2)

“Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but stupid lasts forever.”
― Aristophanes

The only thing I'll feel......will be the RECOIL
Necronomicon Ex-Mortis....... Klaatu Barada Nikkto
"We should seek the greatest value of our action"
<<

Martin1970

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TFM-25

Posts: 359

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:44 pm

Location: Savannah, GA

Post Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:32 pm

Re: Speaker Placement (Amazing Orginals)

I've been fiddling with placing my Amazing Originals for over a year now.
It can be really challenging.
In fact, placed poorly, these things sound like ASS!
Not just kinda bad. REALLY bad!
So far, you've received some great advice.
I'd like to echo some of that and add some to it as well.
Most importantly, I'd like to say
I feel your pain!
These things are SO DIFFICULT to set up.
No one really prepares you for how hard this process really is.

First, I've had these things both ways:

Reversed...
setup reversed.jpg
setup reversed.jpg (211.81 KiB) Viewed 475 times

In this configuration, if the ribbons are close to the side walls, as in my small room, imaging goes to hell.
Everything sounds like it's coming directly from each ribbon.
In a wider room, the imaging may not suffer as much.
The problem is that your mind subconsciously notices the reflections from the walls and 'triangulates' the location of the speakers.
In this case, you have to try curtains/diffusers/absorbtion panels on the side walls.
Or, you can put them in the normal configuration:
setup normal.jpg
setup normal.jpg (158.41 KiB) Viewed 475 times

In the ribbons-in configuration, there isn't as much of a problem with side reflections because, as James said, they have fairly narrow dispersion.
That's even true with the speakers up against the side walls.
It's better if you can get them away, but it's not as much of a huge deal as .....

Getting Them Away From The Front Wall!
Since they ARE dipoles, almost all of the sound comes out of the front or the back (figure 8 pattern)
Now, again, you run into that problem with your brain figuring out where they are again.
But now it's a HUGE problem because half of the sound is coming out of the back.
And your 'mental sonar' is getting pissed off because it's getting two locations (or more) per side.
But, these locations are superimposed on one another.
You hear this as smeared, muddy sound.
Bob Carver says that you need a 6ms gap between the front source and the reflected back sound.
Stereophile says this needs to be 10ms.
What this means to you is that your speakers need to be either a minimum of 3.41 feet or 5.68 feet from the front wall,
depending on who you want to believe.
This is with no or minimal acoustical treatment.
If you want to treat the front wall, you can go closer.
Even if you can't keep them pulled out, you owe it to yourself to at least try them pulled like 4 or 5 feet from the front wall.
Nothing I did had more of a profound effect than that.
Additional help picking your distances:
The Cardas dipole calculator, here
http://www.cardas.com/speaker_placement.php?type=dipole
It really works.

Dialing It In
Now, you've got the general location.
That was the hard part.
Aiming is easy-peasy.
In a perfect world, you want the center of the ribbon pointed directly at each of your respective ears at the sweet spot.
You need a $10 Harbor Freight laser level, a right angle of some kind, and some tape.
(This saves you from needing an assistant and having to adjust over and over and over and it's CHEAP!)
laser triangle.jpg
laser triangle.jpg (165.73 KiB) Viewed 475 times

Tape the level to the right angle, turn the laser on and go over to the speaker.
aiming.jpg
aiming.jpg (133.06 KiB) Viewed 475 times

Hold the angle flat against the baffle with the back of the laser directly over the center of the ribbon.
change the angle of the speaker until the beam is pointing about where your closest ear would be at the listening position.
ugly couch.jpg
ugly couch.jpg (84.94 KiB) Viewed 475 times

To get the rake right, turn the triangle so that it's vertically against the ribbon with the laser pointing out from the ribbon's center, and get the vertical alignment.
You'll probably find that you can't get that dead-on without the speaker wanting to topple over, as has been mentioned previously.
Weights on the back and shimming the feet can get it dead-on.
I haven't tried that yet.
It's only about 6 inches too high with the speaker almost ready to fall forward at my listening position.

Other Hints:
Couch cushions work even better than pillows when trying to temporarily get an idea of where treatments might help without actually spending money.
I also found that placing them in the corners helps tighten up the whole spectrum.
It's a surprise because bass should blow right through them.

Carpet on the floor helped the sound dramatically.
(At least it did in my VERY LIVE room)
At one point I had 4 layers of remnants on the floor between the speakers and the listening position (with no padding.)
That sounded the best.
I'd guess regular carpet with padding would be just as effective.

I found the Sumiko process to be hopeless with these speakers.
I'm pretty much ready to kill Jennifer Warnes AND her damned horse.
I wasted SO MUCH time f'ing with that crap!

It's amazing how little the side walls actually affect these things.
My right channel is in the middle of an opening and the left is against a window and both sides sound the same.

I know some of this is repetition, but hope it helps nonetheless.
-Martin
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mbskeam

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SILVER-7t

Posts: 1987

Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:32 am

Location: Woodinville Wa

Post Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:37 pm

Re: Speaker Placement (Amazing Orginals)

so how has the metering ben going?????
Mbskeam


#1 BLACK BEAUTY's made by the man, the myth, the legend Bob Carver
CARVER: TFM-75, TFM-45(3), SD/A-490T
SUNFIRE: Tube pre
2 sets of ALS'3, set of SILVERS, set of PLATS
AUDIOCONTROL: phase coupled activator
KENWOOD: BASIC M2a (2)

“Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but stupid lasts forever.”
― Aristophanes

The only thing I'll feel......will be the RECOIL
Necronomicon Ex-Mortis....... Klaatu Barada Nikkto
"We should seek the greatest value of our action"
<<

Martin1970

User avatar

TFM-25

Posts: 359

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:44 pm

Location: Savannah, GA

Post Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:49 pm

Re: Speaker Placement (Amazing Orginals)

Mbskeam:
I don't want to hijack Beachbum's thread, but it's going well, I'm having some issues deciding what part of a waveform to use to calculate the alignment and I have much that I'm thinking about along those lines.

I think time alignment is much more important than most people think.

I also fully plan on trying your damping thing as well.
I'd like to use a different material though.


Oh and I'm just getting started with 5 attachments.
Post minimum should be more like 20 :)

Your avatar scares the hell out of me.
Carver: ALS plat upgrades, TX-11a, C-9, C-1
Sunfire: Cinema Grand Sig 400 Seven x2
Rane: RPM88 26Z x3
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