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Tube rolling the Baby Black Beauty or CF amps

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Magnaryder

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Post Mon Dec 02, 2013 6:58 pm

Re: Tube rolling the Baby Black Beauty or CF amps

So Eric, what have you rolled into your BBB amps? I'm curious about the differences in the 12AX7s.

ray
Magnaryder

Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.

Tim deParavicini's E.A.R. Yoshino V20 Integrated Amplifier, Fosgate Signature Phono pre, Lucas Labs 12B4/OD3 LineStage, No. 50 and 51 Carverfest Tube amps, Hammond M3 tube amp, Ariston RD-40 Turntable w/ Linn Basik LSV tonearn, Grado Statement Master1 cartridge, Carver TX-8 & 11 tuners, Carver TD-12, Tascam CC-222mkII CD recorder, DBX-3BX & 200xg & 120x, CarverAudio ALV prototypes, Alesis Studio One loudspeakers, Energy Reference 22 Connoisseur, Cambridge Audio Model 8s, The Carver Research DarkStar Sub and Stax Earspeakers.

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MRHP

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Post Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:16 pm

Re: Tube rolling the Baby Black Beauty or CF amps

Magnaryder wrote:So Eric, what have you rolled into your BBB amps? I'm curious about the differences in the 12AX7s.

ray


Ray, here are a few that I have rolled and a short description. BTW the 12ax7 socket is cool because you can run a 12au7 or 5751 in it.

Mullard 12ax7 10M series; full bodied, warm smooth mids.
Amperex 12ax7 labled Sel Lorenz with falcon logo dimple disc getter; big fat soundstage kinda like a Telefunken on steroids.
Mullard 12ax7 labled Siemens ECC83 with falcon logo; a little flat sounding untill I use them on a harsh/bright recording and they really sound great.
1949 Ken Rad 12ax7; these sound great with any music nice airy topend and smooth midrange and bass
GE 5751 five star triple mica black plates; nice tight bass, very focused and a bit steril.
1957 Sylvania 5751 triple mica black plate d-getter; very nice airy topend tight bass liquid midrange, these babys are nice.
1957 Brimar 13D5 (12au7) very mellow and s.w.e.e.t. low noise, not even a hint of harsh-ness
1957 Amperex ECC186 / 7316 (12au7) very 3-D with airy open topend and liquid midrange.
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MRHP

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Post Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:40 pm

Re: Tube rolling the Baby Black Beauty or CF amps

Almost forgot to add:
Siemens ECC83 2 post round getter; most all 12ax7's have a bit of a gritty bloated big sound stage. The Siemens on the other hand have a much cleaner clear detailed sound without losing the big sound stage, they also have a real nice deep lowend. These tubes sound nice and can be found on ebay at very reasonable prices.
RFT 12au7 rams head logo; these tubes are cheap and plentyful but have the most liquid midrange and topend of any tube Ive heard. They are weak on bass so you will have turn up the eq or bass conture on your preamp.
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Snoop65

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Post Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:11 pm

Re: Tube rolling the Baby Black Beauty or CF amps

MRHP wrote:
Magnaryder wrote:So Eric, what have you rolled into your BBB amps? I'm curious about the differences in the 12AX7s.

ray


Ray, here are a few that I have rolled and a short description. BTW the 12ax7 socket is cool because you can run a 12au7 or 5751 in it.

Mullard 12ax7 10M series; full bodied, warm smooth mids.
Amperex 12ax7 labled Sel Lorenz with falcon logo dimple disc getter; big fat soundstage kinda like a Telefunken on steroids.
Mullard 12ax7 labled Siemens ECC83 with falcon logo; a little flat sounding untill I use them on a harsh/bright recording and they really sound great.
1949 Ken Rad 12ax7; these sound great with any music nice airy topend and smooth midrange and bass
GE 5751 five star triple mica black plates; nice tight bass, very focused and a bit steril.
1957 Sylvania 5751 triple mica black plate d-getter; very nice airy topend tight bass liquid midrange, these babys are nice.
1957 Brimar 13D5 (12au7) very mellow and s.w.e.e.t. low noise, not even a hint of harsh-ness
1957 Amperex ECC186 / 7316 (12au7) very 3-D with airy open topend and liquid midrange.

Eric, you forgot to warn Ray about the Mullards 10M prices, you don't want him to have a heart attack! I have to back you up on the Siemens dual post getter 12AX7 it's a awesome tube!!!
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MRHP

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Post Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:12 am

Re: Tube rolling the Baby Black Beauty or CF amps

Oh yes the 10M series Mullards can get way out of control on price. I have the steel pin variety and they are labled B&L for Baush and Lomb. So I found them at a reasonable price. If you go for the gold pins, you better rob a bank... :lol:

The Amperex E186CC/7316 can also get very expensive but most people dont know they are a 12au7 substitute. So if you shop long enough you can find them at a deal. Be sure to get the late 50's D-getter.

The sylvania 5751's can get expensive also. Im looking for a second set right now so I will have a quad for mono block operation.
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MRHP

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Post Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:01 am

Re: Tube rolling the Baby Black Beauty or CF amps

radioeng2 wrote:
MRHP wrote:When setup in mono block config, some amps leave one of the two 12ax7's at idle. Can someone give me an idea how to test and see if the Baby Black's are like this....without blowing up anything!!!LOL

I might be wrong, but what I think you're referring to is that while these and most small signal tubes are two triodes, some designs only use one of the triodes in the tube envelope.

In these, that is not the case. One half is used as input voltage gain, the second half as the phase splitter for each channel. So two small signal tubes are being used for a stereo amp. When you're mono-blocking by driving both channels either through a Y cable or physically through a switch, you are still using both channels input sections, so nothing is hanging unused.

Mark


Mark I tried what mbskeam suggested and removed one of the 12ax7 from the Baby Black. It seemed to sound normal so I put it back in and tried the other one and it also seemed to sound normal. This was in monoblock config.....does this make sense? Can you tell me in your opinion whats happening? I ask all these questions hoping not to buy a full quad of MC1 12ax7 Mullards if possible....they are pricey!
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radioeng2

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Post Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:24 am

Re: Tube rolling the Baby Black Beauty or CF amps

Hi Eric,

These being dual triodes means two triode sections in each envelope. These amps use the typical configuration for a push-pull amp and have an input voltage gain section first and then a second triode configured as a phase splitter to derive the push and the pull going to each of the output tubes on an channel. So for each channel in normal stereo configuration you're running four seperate tube elements. One in, one as a phase splitter and then the output pair. Which the EL84 is not a dual triode so a single tube for each half the output stage.

OK...when we mono we common a single channel input to drive both channels. A Y splitter can do this or a switch wired to do the same. Now we have an identical signal on both amplifier channels. We might chose to use one for a top-highs section of a dual input speaker and the other for the lows. So we'd have like 20 watts for each section of the speaker in that configuration.

Or...we could bridge the output and have a single output of twice the power. In this configuration, your using the high side of each output to go to the speaker. This gives you twice the voltage swing to the load. No switch on the output is necessary, just same signal to each channel input via either the Y cable or a switch doing the same thing.

Or...on some amps we could configure the output for the high side and the ground side to be commoned and have twice the current to drive the speakers. Again, we need a common input signal.

OK....so that's the basic ground rules...now let's think about how you could pull one at a time each of the two input tubes and still have signal.

This isn't the dual mono configuration were talking about.

If you're doing the typical bridging configuration, you have to through a switch or Y cord and wire the speaker to the two red posts. In that way, no matter whether a single tube is the input and phase splitter stage or one tube does the voltage for both channels and the second does the phase splitter for both, pulling a tube would leave you with one hot driven and the other not...or no output at all.

So I'm thinking the only way you could be experiencing pulling either tube and still having output would only be if you're doing the parallelling of outputs. The twice the current situation. In that way, if one tube envelope is doing both the gain and the phase splitter then when pulling either tube you have removed one channel output but you're wired across both and you'd still have signal. If one tube was both channels voltage gain the other the phase splitter, then pulling either would leave you with no output at all.

So that'd be my guess as to what's going on here. I don't know the specifics of what the factory built 20/20 does exactly, so maybe you or somebody else can fill in anything I don't know. And comment if I've layed this out in anyway incorrectly with such a long explanation.

Mark
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MRHP

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Post Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:02 pm

Re: Tube rolling the Baby Black Beauty or CF amps

radioeng2 wrote:Hi Eric
OK...when we mono we common a single channel input to drive both channels. A Y splitter can do this or a switch wired to do the same. Now we have an identical signal on both amplifier channels. We might chose to use one for a top-highs section of a dual input speaker and the other for the lows. So we'd have like 20 watts for each section of the speaker in that configuration.
Mark


This is how I was running it at CF13. One amp running the tweeters and the other running the subs on my little DQ-6's.
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MRHP

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Post Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:07 pm

Re: Tube rolling the Baby Black Beauty or CF amps

radioeng2 wrote:So I'm thinking the only way you could be experiencing pulling either tube and still having output would only be if you're doing the parallelling of outputs. The twice the current situation. In that way, if one tube envelope is doing both the gain and the phase splitter then when pulling either tube you have removed one channel output but you're wired across both and you'd still have signal. If one tube was both channels voltage gain the other the phase splitter, then pulling either would leave you with no output at all.

So that'd be my guess as to what's going on here.

Mark


That sounds reasonable to me and thanks for the lesson! Is there any danger of harming anything by leaving 1 tube out on each amp?
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OK ERIC, LET GO OF THE MOUSE AND BACK AWAY FROM YOUR PC WITH YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR. NOW SLOWLY LAY FACE DOWN ON THE FLOOR!!!! - Snoop65
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radioeng2

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Post Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:55 pm

Re: Tube rolling the Baby Black Beauty or CF amps

But if that is indeed the way it's running, then one pair of outputs aren't being driven with a tube out. And you've got no advantage over just running one amp in a normal stereo mode. Maybe I'm missing something here though.

Pulling one tube will unload the PS a bit and raise voltages. Whether it's enough to be dangerous I'd doubt but can't be sure without measuring. Now pulling the output pair in addition, I'd start to really fear too much voltage and caps at risk.

Mark
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Magnaryder

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Post Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:11 pm

Re: Tube rolling the Baby Black Beauty or CF amps

I've spent a great deal of time underneath the hood of my CF amps. It appears to me that each 6ax7 drives one pair of EL84s. In the case of the CF amp if you left one of the 6ax7s out it wouldn't be driving the power tubes of one channel. As Mark said you would have the same output as running one amplifier in stereo. Eric, there's no way around spending the big$$ for those other 10Ms, unless you find a comparable tube for less $$.

ray
Magnaryder

Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.

Tim deParavicini's E.A.R. Yoshino V20 Integrated Amplifier, Fosgate Signature Phono pre, Lucas Labs 12B4/OD3 LineStage, No. 50 and 51 Carverfest Tube amps, Hammond M3 tube amp, Ariston RD-40 Turntable w/ Linn Basik LSV tonearn, Grado Statement Master1 cartridge, Carver TX-8 & 11 tuners, Carver TD-12, Tascam CC-222mkII CD recorder, DBX-3BX & 200xg & 120x, CarverAudio ALV prototypes, Alesis Studio One loudspeakers, Energy Reference 22 Connoisseur, Cambridge Audio Model 8s, The Carver Research DarkStar Sub and Stax Earspeakers.

THIS SPACE FOR RENT...helping the blind to hear, one valve at a time
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MRHP

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Post Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:38 pm

Re: Tube rolling the Baby Black Beauty or CF amps

Well I have one set already so I guess one more set wouldnt be th end of the world. Ive been running E84L 1963 Siemens and 1959 Sylvania 5751 triple mica black plates in the amps. And 1957 Mullard 12ax7 MC1's in the phono preamp. Lets just say it sounds quite well and I may stic with this combo for a while.

Abouve setup takes instrument seperation and detail to the extreme. Im having fun and enjoy getting feed back from peeps who more than about this stuff than I do. Im used to being the expert on other forums when it comes to engine building so its nice to know nothing a learn a few things. Thanks for everybodys input!

Eric
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Magnaryder

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Post Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:18 pm

Re: Tube rolling the Baby Black Beauty or CF amps

radioeng2 wrote:
These being dual triodes means two triode sections in each envelope. These amps use the typical configuration for a push-pull amp and have an input voltage gain section first and then a second triode configured as a phase splitter to derive the push and the pull going to each of the output tubes on an channel. So for each channel in normal stereo configuration you're running four seperate tube elements. One in, one as a phase splitter and then the output pair. Which the EL84 is not a dual triode so a single tube for each half the output stage.

Mark


Mark, I acquired an old hifi unit that uses el84 output tubes but only one tube per channel. My guess is 7-8 watts a side and uses an EF86 in front of the EL84. Would this type of amplifier be an SET? The iron appears to be very nice.

ray
Magnaryder

Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.

Tim deParavicini's E.A.R. Yoshino V20 Integrated Amplifier, Fosgate Signature Phono pre, Lucas Labs 12B4/OD3 LineStage, No. 50 and 51 Carverfest Tube amps, Hammond M3 tube amp, Ariston RD-40 Turntable w/ Linn Basik LSV tonearn, Grado Statement Master1 cartridge, Carver TX-8 & 11 tuners, Carver TD-12, Tascam CC-222mkII CD recorder, DBX-3BX & 200xg & 120x, CarverAudio ALV prototypes, Alesis Studio One loudspeakers, Energy Reference 22 Connoisseur, Cambridge Audio Model 8s, The Carver Research DarkStar Sub and Stax Earspeakers.

THIS SPACE FOR RENT...helping the blind to hear, one valve at a time
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radioeng2

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Post Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:05 pm

Re: Tube rolling the Baby Black Beauty or CF amps

Magnaryder wrote: Mark, I acquired an old hifi unit that uses el84 output tubes but only one tube per channel. My guess is 7-8 watts a side and uses an EF86 in front of the EL84. Would this type of amplifier be an SET? The iron appears to be very nice.

ray

Hi Ray,

Sounds kind a neat! Yes...that'll be a form of a SET. I say form, as that's a pentode, likely strapped triode. I tend to not think of them as true triodes...just a lot like it. If it is run triode, then you'll be more like 3.5 to 5 watts probably. Pentode or UL then your number would be closer.

The EF86 is also a pentode. It a nice low noise tube with higher gain. Often seen in a TT pre because of that low noise. The mesh screen version of that tube is to me, one of the prettiest tubes around, if that matters.

I've got a EL84 strapped triode that is one of my sweetest tube amps! It runs hot and sounds hot! Tube rectified, which is to me always sweeter sounding than the best attempts at SS seems to achieve.

Lots of EL84 amps around for a long time now....for a reason....

Have fun with it but don't go too crazy on an old chassis.

Mark

PS...oh, if it is just two stages with no interstage, then it may be inverting.
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MRHP

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Post Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:31 pm

Re: Tube rolling the Baby Black Beauty or CF amps

Magnaryder wrote:So Eric, what have you rolled into your BBB amps? I'm curious about the differences in the 12AX7s.

ray


Ray I tell ya, if you want to go straight for the gusto the Sylvania 5751 triple mica black plates with gold printing are at the very high end of the food chain. They just do everything right. Incredible sonics.
TFM-75 serial #0001
PT-2400 serial #0001
Baby Black serial #0001
Baby Black serial #0002
Bone Stock Lightstar
Vintage Hi-Fi modified Lightstar
Cherry/260's
Carver 490t
Sunfire Tube preamp
ProJect TT Tube preamp
DENON DP-62L TurnTable
DQ-20's
Douglas Cables
More Douglas cables
OK ERIC, LET GO OF THE MOUSE AND BACK AWAY FROM YOUR PC WITH YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR. NOW SLOWLY LAY FACE DOWN ON THE FLOOR!!!! - Snoop65
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