Tubes Tubes Tubes

I agree with that one, Bob. I have CFLs in ceiling can lights. I got a couple off brand ones and they both failed within a month (Chinese). None of the USA built ones have failed.

Sorry for the off topic, James, after you so deftly tried to return to topic.

But Bill, those time bombs are not suppose to be run in a contained environment like that at all! Anybody reading this that has them in an enclosed environment, please pull them NOW!!

That power supply in the base of them, again made out of as cheap as possible parts, can't hold up to the heat. But it's not just failure you need to worry about, it's the potential for FIRE!!

These ain't no ordinary filament bulb...they're hazardous, frauds and not really green like they want to promote. I'm predicting their eventually being outlawed!!
Avoid 'em like the plague!!

I don't know where you go to find low cost and moderate quality. It used to be Japan, but stuff manufactured in Japan is as high quality as we make and as expensive.

I'm not looking for low cost and moderate quality. I'm willing to pay a reasonable cost for good quality. I'm just looking for good quality in durable goods that will have a reasonable lifespan... the kind of thing that I can expect to buy once every 10 years.

Right now we've got to choose between ultra cheap crap that has a short lifespan, and ultra-expensive boutique items that are hand made by artisans. Where's the middle ground? I don't want to buy cheap crap, and I'm willing to pay more -- a lot more -- for good quality. But I don't want to be forced into paying 100x the cost for boutique hand crafted items that are so expensive that only Bernie Madoff can afford them. Its not like I need a $1000 shower curtain.

I 2nd all of the "cheap chinese" comments. I was an "early adapter" of CFL's (nothing to do with "green"; I just liked the very low energy use vs "Edison" lights!) back when they cost a lot, but were advertised as "cost effective" because you'd save enough on electricity costs (and replacement costs - NOT) to make them save you tons of money "in the long run". But I too noticed that these bulbs were failing quite regularly after a year (or even less) of service (nothing at all like the advertised 10+ years of life!). What they failed to tell you (among other things , like Mercury vapor risks )was that the long life only applied if you left these lights on continuosly! The on/off cycles they can't take! Dishonest marketing/claims from the "watermelons", once again!

I was an early adopter too -- back when Philips said that their bulbs would last 10 years. So I bought 5 of them and all 5 went bad in less than a year. I never got the warranty replacements because I couldn't find the receipts.

WRT running them continuously, that won't help either. I have a bunch of CFL that are running 24/7 illuminating an algae turf filter in my climate controlled fish room. The room has normal temp, normal humidity, forced airflow, and the lamps are in open fixtures. The 8 lamps that ran 24/7 lasted for anywhere from 2 to 112 days. That's 48 to 2688 hours, or from 0.6% to 33.6% of their rated lifespan. In an uncanny coincidence, the last 2 bulbs failed on days 111 and 112, only 1 day apart. That really surprised me. No, running them 24/7 won't get them to meet their rated lifespan either.

I was reading the fine print on some of the packaging, and I found that the "Buyer's Choice" brand of Chinese bulb at Menard's is rated for 7 years at 3 hours per day. That's 1095.75 hours per year based on 365.25 days per year. At that burn rate, 7 years would be equal to 7670 hours. They're claimed to have an 8000 hour life. None of my bulbs have made it past 1/3 of their rated lifespan.

Since I've recently revised my lighting schedule from 24 on / 0 off to 18/6, I've had two early failures. One at 2 days and one at 27 days, or 36 and 306 hours, or 0.5% and 3.8% of rated service life in hours. The sample size is still pretty small, but I don't think that the cooling period (off time) is going to make up for the added stress on the ballasts that comes from starting the lamps more often. Right now the ones that are still working have been in service for 1 month, or 6% of rated lifespan. We'll have to see how things turn out.

more...

In the big picture, CFL bulbs are NOT the answer. Every time that you throw one away, you're throwing away an electronic ballast and all of the parts that are inside of it. Throwing away ballasts every time that you change a light bulb is NOT environmentally friendly or "green." Its as BLACK as BLACK can be. The environment does not benefit from this type of lighting, but the people who manufacture electronic components that are used in the disposable ballasts are making a killing. They're the only people who will benefit from CFL bulbs, and they are making BILLIONS.

It would make more sense to build CFL bulbs with modular components, so that the spiral bulb could be on a bayonet mount, and snapped or threaded into a non-disposable ballast. That way when the lamp goes bad, you re-lamp the fixture by changing the lamp and retaining the ballast. Less garbage in the landfill.

In the even bigger picture, modular CFL are still not the answer. In terms of the number of lumens per watt of electricity consumed and operating life, linear T8 and T12 bulbs are much, much better. They produce more usable light, its easier to design a reflector to make the emitted light useful, and they don't concentrate heat the way that a spiral CFL bulb does. In addition, they're rated to last 24,000 hours, and they really do last that long when they're driven by a good ballast. I've had T12 fluorescent lamps in my house since it was built in 1956. Since I moved into the house in 1973, I've replaced some of the bulbs, but there are other bulbs that I haven't had to replace in 35+ years. When I changed a T12 in the bathroom fixture a few months ago, the markings on the end of the bulb said that my Dad had installed it in the mid-1980s. 20+ years later that T12 was still in service after seeing daily use with plenty of start cycles in a bathroom application. I honestly don't think that any of today's consumer bulbs will ever last that long. I don't think they're made as well as they used to be.

I agree with that one, Bob. I have CFLs in ceiling can lights. I got a couple off brand ones and they both failed within a month (Chinese). None of the USA built ones have failed.

But Bill, those time bombs are not suppose to be run in a contained environment like that at all! Anybody reading this that has them in an enclosed environment, please pull them NOW!!

good point.

i have some closed (schoolhouse globe type) ceiling fans and some open fixture ceiling fans. none of them have seen a CFL yet.

i also have a number of enclosed glass ceiling fixtures that house incandescent bulbs. i'm trying to replace them in anticipation of only being able to find CFL bulbs in their wattage range. so i've been looking for open ceiling fixtures to replace my closed ceiling fixtures.

i was surprised to find (I guess i shouldn't have been surprised at all by this) that although the law says that all incandescent bulbs from 40w to 100w are being phased out such that only CFL will be available, the lighting industry is still designing the majority of their fixtures as closed fixtures, in spite of the fact that the law is mandating CFL bulbs that can't be used in enclosed fixtures. its as if the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing in the lighting industry.

one thing about CFL that nobody seems to mention in their product literature is the bulb's orientation WRT service life. anecdotally, i'm finding that the bulbs are burning out much faster in a base up position or a vertical minus 45 degrees base up position than in the base down position. i attribute this to thermal de-rating of the ballast components, even when the lamps are mounted in an open fixture that has ventilation holes around the base, such as a clamp-on work lamp.

These are bulbs that have the spiral inside a reflecting bulb, made to replace can lights. They are weird. WHen you first turn them on, they are dim and come up to full brightness in about a minute.

James,

I have no experience with that brand of tube, but the price for them is on the high side. I can buy a quad of NOS Ei 6CA7's (long out of production) for around $200-$300 and they are an excellent tube with balls.

64 differences? Ummmm...yeah ok, I call BS. There aren't 64 components in one of those tubes.

BTW, those EH EL34's he talks about are gawd awful sounding.

One last nail in the coffin of the "green's" bogus CFL's "advantages": the claim that they save all of this energy (mainly because of the "wasted" heat that "Edison" lights produce) is ~50% off! Why? Because during the winter months this well distributed (as in freely distributed with no ~2000 watt furnace fan motor needed!) "waste heat" (from convential light bulbs) is used to offset (1 for 1) heat needed to warm your home! Ergo, it is NOT wasted energy! Yes, I know you say this effect is small, but so is the difference in energy useage of the two different bulbs. And no, this effect is not offset in the summer months by increased air conditioning because many more homes have heaters (like all!) then have air conditioning! (and where this would be an issue - in office buildings, they already use non-Edison lights : flourescent tubes!).

good point about the heat. i use about 12 KWH/day for the metal halide lights running over my reeftanks, and although they do produce a lot of heat, its not as if the energy that is turned into heat is all wasted; in the winter the surplus heat that they generate helps to warm the house. in the summer the heat is vented out of the house to minimize any adverse effects on my AC bill. i also prefer to listen to my VT200 in the winter months for the same reasons.

for new production tubes the EL-34 EH can sound pretty good in a guitar amp, though i prefer the svets over the EH and the JJ, and =C= over both.

"i also prefer to listen to my VT200 in the winter months for the same reasons."



Yeah those damn efficent Carver amps wouldn't do squat to warm you up on a cold winter night. Curse you Bob Carver !

KT-88 black bottle
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=64336.0

KT-88 black bottle
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=64336.0

Hmmm....it seems that one has to be a member to view your link and I don't want to join. Can you provide some insight?

KT-88 black bottle
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=64336.0

Hmmm....it seems that one has to be a member to view your link and I don't want to join. Can you provide some insight?

I tried to look as well but will pass up joining another forum. You could always copy and paste from the other site what you wanted us to see

OK.......the thread is 6 pages long. I will try to get the relevant stuff.
The guy doing the review is named Lee, dont know him.
Here are the companies(?) he is involved with
http://www.cryo-parts.com
http://www.locus-design.com
http://www.cryo-freeze.com

here goes:
I am going to run these in an Eastern Electric M520, which I currently have winged C's installed. I have a few other sets of EL34's around that I can compare the "Treasure's" to as well, but I am most interested in comparing them to the Genalex KT77 as this set of tubes is reported to give phenomenal performance in the M520 according to Bill O'Connell at Morningstar Audio. Bill is a virtual font of arcane tube knowledge, tube trivia and is the authority when it comes to knowing what tubes sound good in his gear.



So, anyway, my plan is to burn in and try both sets of tubes before cryo to get a handle on their sound 'raw'. I will then cryo them, burn them in again and listen to them after cryo to see what changes take place and document the differences I hear when these tubes are installed in the M520.

Is anyone interested in the results of this experiment, except me? If not, I don't mind talking to myself...

Disclaimer's:

I have no business ties to Grant Fidelty or Shuguang tubes. In fact, I didn't even really know about Grant Fidelity until a couple weeks ago when I found a link to their site from the Shuguang site indicating they are the North American distributor for the Shuguang "Treasure" series of tubes.

I do have a business relationship with the importer of the Genalex tubes as I have access to any of the tubes that New Sensor offers, however, I haven't really sold anything that they offer as tubes are not really a focus of my business. I mainly got set up with them so that I could offer/upgrade the stock tubes to the sweet and juicy like these nutz. JJ and EH gold pin tubes in some headphone amps that I am working on. I suppose, sometime in the future I may offer cryo'd tubes, but I have no firm plans to do so at this time as there seems to be many others already filling this niche.

In any event, this will be a fairly long process, but I thought I would post the results here for posterity. Of course, all of the conclusions will be my opinion and may not jibe with anyone else's, but that's part of what makes this hobby fun. I just thought this might be a fun exercise and perhaps add to our collective knowledge...or not, ha!

Peace,

Lee

Update. The "Treasure" tube are on the way from Canada. As soon as I get them, I'll install them and get them running in. I think Grant Fidelity recommends 300 hours, so I'll certainly follow their recommendations. I can report what I am hearing while they are breaking in if anyone is interested.

My plan:

Install the Treasure tubes, let them break in, listen to them after break in and then cryo them.
While the Treasure tubes are in cryo, I will install the Genalex KT-77's and let them break in, report what I hear and then cryo them.
While the KT-77's are in cryo, I will re-install the Treasure tubes, let them break in, listen and report.
Finally, I will re-install the Genalex, let them break in and report.

So, this will take a while, but hopefully someone will get some benefit out of it.

Peace,

Lee

Got about 20-25 hours on the Shuguang Treasure Series tubes now. They were a little rough (spitty, forward, etc.) the first 5-10 hours, but have really started to mature the last 10-15 hours. They were much better sounding this morning than last night (I left the amp on all night and will probably leave it on for the duration of the test) and they have continued to improve throughout the day. Really starting to smooth out now.

I've been crazy busy building cables and havent had time to type up my all of my thoughts about their sound at this stage of their burn in, but I will say that already they are sounding pretty good and are showing great promise.

More as I get some extra time.

Peace,

Lee


Quick update. Amp has been on and running in for another day now, tubes are really starting to even out and the bass is tightening up. Sound is smoother than yesterday and I fully expect them to continue to smooth out (if these break in like most other tubes I have played with for 25+ years) over the next few days.

Inner detail is good, but not quite "there" yet. However, these tubes are still in their infancy.

Thus far, these are the most impressive EL34 variants I have tried while still this early in their life.

peace

Glad you are having fun with them. I've linked up this thread from our forum:
http://grantfidelity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=950

Rich, they aren't painted up, it is a special coating on the interior of the tube, according to Shuguang:

High Polymer Compound Carbon (HPCC) coating to maximize "secondary electron emission surpression" from the glass enclosure, in turn reduces internal noise generated from the vacuum tube. Don't ask, don't know, but next time at the factory will see if they will let me watch it being applied.

It reminds me of the results of Cryo treating a tube, except with a much higher quality tube than I have ever has cryo'd. Will be very interesting to see how Lee interprets the next stage of cryo treating the tubes. No one has a lot of time on any of these tubes yet. If you follow the link above you will find in the next thread some 300B-Z results compared to other 300B tubes.

Cheers,
Ian


Tubes are still changing, opening up and smoothing out. Detail is really starting to come around!

In fact, the Eastern Electric M520 with the Shuguang Treasures is sounding so nice that I am going to hook it up to my set of custom passive Sonicweld speakers--these are a custom ultra high end passive monitor system that were built as a one off for me (although he may build more if someone wanted) so I that could use the amplification of my choice and compare amplifiers. These speakers are amazingly transparent and the finest passive monitor speakers I have heard. They will lay bare any changes and allow me to "really" hear what is going on with the new tubes...and anything else in the signal chain.

Seems strange to hook an $1800 amp with $600 worth of tubes into a $15k set of speakers (but I have a $5k power cable on the amp, so who ever said I was sane...), but I will report the results soon. I'll snap some pictures of the setup soon as well.

Peace,

Lee

Was able to do a little listening today and the Treasure's are really starting to live up to their name. Very smooth, open and airy. Detail is coming around, there is much more inner detail than a couple of days ago.

Really looking up! Will update again in a few days.

Peace,

Lee

I started out with the Winged C EL34's, which the Shuguang's are just beating up on (at least in this amp, to my ears), unmercifully--they are in a whole different league than the C's, which is a highly regarded set of tubes.

Next up, while I am cryo treating the Shuguangs's will be the Genalex KT-77's. However, I plan on leaving the Shuguang's in for another 200 hours, at least, before cryo'ing them.

Peace,

Lee

Quick update.

Tubes are really evening out now. Haven't heard a great deal of change over the last two days, so maybe they are finally run in. I will listen critically over the next few days and post some impressions soon.

Richidoo--bass is really nice now. Tight, controlled, good pitch definition and a minimum of overhang. The last 100 hours, or so, the bass has transformed.

Marvin--They are clearly better, to my ears (in this amp) than the winged C's.

That's all for now.

Peace,

Lee

Sorry, I have been so busy the past couple of weeks that I haven't had much extra time to surf AC. I will endeavor to get some thoughts together ASAP and post them.

I will say that these tubes are officially 'amazing'. Smooth, detailed, open, airy...just overall wonderful! In the M520 Eastern Electric amp, they are magical. This unassuming budget $1800 amp, with the Shuguang Treasure tubes, Mullard GZ34 rectifiers, Mullard EF86 driver tubes and Amperex Bugle Boy 12AU7 phase splitters is just flat out amazing for the price.

I can't imagine that anyone could go wrong with these Shugaung Treasure tubes.

More to come: I still haven't cryo'd them, I've been digging the sound so much, I haven't felt a pressing need to treat them. However, I think I will next week. And, once I pull them out and put them through cryo, I'll start doing some comparisons.

Peace,

Lee



This is from the first 3 pages.......continued.

Part two:

I'm not sure that cryo is always a good choice for tubes. I find that it often gives a more brittle, solid-state type presentation. It might be OK in a soft/warm circuit, but for something more modern like the VTA ST70 or VTL ST85's, my Siemens 12at7's sounded better without cryo treatment. On the other hand, the SED =C= EL34's are very good with it, so maybe it's a crap shoot. Only one way to find out, I guess...

Tyson
Hey Tyson! Your AC scotch thread is famous over at Head-Fi as well.

I've cryo'd thousands of tubes, most of the tubes I do these days are from return customers, so they must like the results. I have a cstomer who sent me a NOS quad of WE 300B's one time and then sent me more of the same after the first four. The first go 'round must have went well!

For my personal gear, I've had good success thus far with cryo'd tubes. Some tubes it made a large difference (Winged C EL34's, Sovtek 5AR4's, Russian 6C45P's, RCA 12FK6, Siemens EF80 and Chinese 6BM8's), and with some it only made a 'slight" difference (RCA clear top 12AU7, Chinese 5AR4 and a Russian EZ81).

I will be experimenting with Mullard GZ34's, some Amperex BB EZ80's, some BB 12AU7's, some assorted other EZ80's, some Mullard EF86's, some Genalex KT77's, and more, over the next few weeks/months so I can talk intelligently about the results after these are done and burned in.

FWIW--I have personally found that tubes (or most anything else for that matter) that goes through cryo, needs to be run in for quite a while after to really open up again. Also, different cryo processes produce different results.

In any event, the above is all my opinion and what I hear, I don't want to turn this into an ad for my services and business, so I'll shut up.

Peace,

Lee


As an aside, I have had the amp on now, non stop 24 hours a day, for 3-4 weeks with nary a problem or complaint from the amp, or the tubes. So, reliability on these tubes seems to be good.

Peace,

Lee
Hello Everyone,

Sorry for the delay in posting my thoughts, it has been a crazy few weeks around here.

However, following are a few thoughts from my listening sessions the past few weeks.

The Shuguang tubes are 'broken in', finally (!), I think. I haven't noticed much change the past week, or so, I think they have finally leveled off and are sounding like they are supposed to, ie, GREAT!

All comments are compared to the stock (not cryo'd) SED Winged C's:

Bass is tight and tuneful, while going much deeper.
Highs are much more extended and pure. Not splashy at all like they were with the SED's. Cymbals sound like cymbals, not like
"escaping steam", which is a pet peeve of mine.
Midrange is close in purity and smoothness to the SED's (which are VERY good in this area), but more transparent, which allows one to 'see' into the stage and sound scape more clearly and allows the illusion of space to really develop. In addition, spatial cues are easier to identity which allows firm placement of instruments and/or performers within the stage.
The last week, or so, I have been finding it harder to listen critically and find myself just drawn into the music as the emotion of the artist is really coming through. This doesn't happen to me a lot with budget gear, as I am pretty jaded, so consider it high praise, indeed.

More to come. However, suffice to say that these are remarkable tubes and are keepers and, IMO, well worth the money. They are more akin to a component upgrade than a tube upgrade, to my mind.

Next up, I will cryo these bad boys and report on how they sound after they are broken in. I should have them cryo'd and back in the amp within 2-3 weeks.

While they are in cryo, I will pop in some cryo'd Winged C's and then some stock Genalex KT77's for a bit of fun.

More to come, soon!

Can someone move this thread to whatever forum ends up taking its place, please? I have people that PM me to make sure I am updating it, at least once in a while, so maybe there is some interest out there. I don't have any interest in self aggrandizement and would have let the thread just die, but now that some are interested, I want to follow through.

Peace,

Lee

Quote from: JakeJ on March 19, 2009, 02:49:39 PM
I am hoping they turn out to be sonically as good as advertised and have a long life (10,000 hours or better) as a set would last me darn near forever with a bit of tube rolling.

Sonically, they are every bit as good as advertised.

I, too, hope they last 10k hours! I have some Mullard 5AR4'S in the amp that should last forever as well, that would be great if the only tubes I ever had to replace were the driver and phase splitter!

Peace,

Lee

Quick update:

OK, finally got the Shuguang's into cryo today. Should have them out early next week, so will be reporting some results soon--right now I have put the cryo'd Winged C's back in the amp to refresh my aural memory. Will pop the Genalex 77's in the amp soon.

Peace,

Lee

Quote from: lonewolfny42 on April 02, 2009, 11:38:22 PM
Lee....

Interesting thread...

What speakers are you running with the Eastern Electric M520 ? Thanks...

Lately, the past two weeks or so, I've been grooving on a set of Eminent Tech LFT-16's, there is a great synergy between the M520 and those. Any one who visited my room at the first couple of RMAF's can attest to that. However, my main passive set is custom pair of passive Sonicweld's (all of the Sonicweld's are active) that I commissioned so I could listen to tube amps on an ultra high resolution speaker to be able to easily identify any changes.

I have also tried three different sets of Whiplash Audio full range single driver speakers, a pair of Acoustat's (at LOW volumes, ha!), a big 'ol honking pair of Klipsch "something or other" that are incredibly sensitive, and some other assorted Infinity, some assorted British speakers, and some others that I have laying around at the shop, or the house.

Peace,

Lee

I just got the Shuguang Treasure's out of cryo today, so I will post some impressions on them after a bit of break in time.

Peace,

Lee

OK, quick update time.

Getting some good burn in time on the cryo'd Shuguang Treasure 6CA7's and they are stunning. Even more stunning than they were in stock form, quieter, more low level detail, sweeter highs and tighter bass. So, this time, on these tubes, my cryo profile made a nice improvement.

Yeah, I know, I cryo stuff and that may make me biased, so take the above for what it is worth. I really have no interest in promoting the cryo treatment part of my business to individual audiophiles though, as it is way too hard to make money doing piecemeal work, so keep that in mind also. I also have no business ties to Grant Fidelity, or Shuguang, which I've stated before.

In any event, I am incredibly impressed with the Shuguang Treasure 6CA7's, especially when cryo'd. They are clearly better (in this amp) than the SED Winged C's that they replaced. Expensive? Yes. Worth it? Yes, at least to me.

Next up, I will compare the Genalex KT77's with the Shuguang's. However, I am slow, so it will be a while. This should be the most interesting part of the comparison and the Gen's are very good as well.

Stay tuned.

Peace,

Lee

FYI--the rest of the tube complement I have been using in the Eastern Electric M520 is: Cryo'd Mullard GZ34, date code f32 (2), Cryo'd Amperex Bugle Boy 12AU7 (2) and Cryo'd Genalex EF86 (2).

Have had the Genalex KT-77's in for a few days now, maybe have 75-100 hours on them. I want to let them break in quite a bit more before I make any detailed comments, however, I will say that the Gen's are quite good in this amp as well. The Gen's are starting to open up and the bass is finally coming around, so I have hope that the next hundred hours, or so, will allow these to start to shine.

I really missed the Shuguang's the first few days. They are quite special (I'm just now beginning to realize how special), if you can afford them, buy a set. No, I don't sell them, ha!

So, I'll update this thread from time to time with impressions as the Gen's break in.

Peace,

Lee



Ok.......thats all. There was a ton of babble back and forth.....but I picked out what I thought would be interesting.
AudioCircle is a pretty good site.....check it out if you like:http://www.audiocircle.com/

Perry